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What We Owe Jehovah's Witnesses

By Sarah Barringer Gordon 
Originally published by American History magazine. Published Online: January 27, 2011 
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Jehovah's Witnesses were unlikely champions of religious freedom.

One of the most momentous cases on the Supreme Court docket as war raged globally in 1943 was about a single sentence said aloud by schoolchildren every day. They stood, held their right hands over their hearts or in a raised-arm salute and began, "I pledge allegiance to the flag…" To most Americans the pledge was a solemn affirmation of national unity, especially at a time when millions of U.S. troops were fighting overseas. But the Jehovah's Witnesses, a religious sect renowned for descending en masse on small towns or city neighborhoods and calling on members of other faiths to "awake" and escape the snare of the devil and his minions, felt otherwise. They insisted that pledging allegiance to the flag was a form of idolatry akin to the worship of graven images prohibited by the Bible. In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, Walter Barnett (whose surname was misspelled by a court clerk) argued that the constitutional rights of his daughters Marie, 8, and Gathie, 9, were violated when they were expelled from Slip Hill Grade School near Charleston, W.Va., for refusing to recite the pledge.

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In a landmark decision written by Justice Robert Jackson and announced on Flag Day, June 14, the Supreme Court sided with the Witnesses. "To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds," Jackson said. "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."

Jehovah's Witnesses were unlikely champions of religious freedom. The sect's leaders denounced all other religions and all secular governments as tools of the devil, and preached the imminence of the Apocalypse, during which no one except Jehovah's Witnesses would be spared. But their persistence in fighting in the courts for their beliefs had a dramatic impact on constitutional law. Barnette is just one of several major Supreme Court decisions involving freedom of religion, speech, assembly and conscience that arose from clashes between Jehovah's Witnesses and government authorities. The Witnesses insisted that God's law demanded they refrain from all pledges of allegiance to earthly governments. They tested the nation's tolerance of controversial beliefs and led to an increasing recognition that a willingness to embrace religious diversity is what distinguishes America from tyrannical regimes.

The Witness sect was founded in the 1870s, and caused a stir when the founder, Charles Taze Russell, a haberdasher in Pittsburgh, predicted the world would come to an end in 1914. Russell died in 1916; he was succeeded by his lawyer Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who shrewdly emphasized that the Apocalypse was near, but not so near that Witnesses didn't have time to convert new followers, which they were required to do lest they miss out on salvation. This "blood guilt" propelled in-your-face proselytizing by Witnesses in various communities on street corners and in door-to-door visits. Soon the sect developed a reputation for exhibiting "astonishing powers of annoyance," as one legal commentator put it.

Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist. He routinely encouraged public displays of contempt for "Satan's world," which included all other religions and all secular governments. At the time, the number of Witnesses in the U.S.—roughly 40,000—was so small that many Americans could ignore them. But in Nazi Germany, no group was too small to escape the eye of new chancellor Adolf Hitler, who banned the Witnesses after they refused to show their fealty to him with the mandatory "Heil Hitler" raised-arm salute. (Many Witnesses would later perish in his death camps.) In response, Rutherford praised the German Witnesses and advised all of his followers to refuse to participate in any oaths of allegiance that violated (in his view) the Second Commandment: "Thou shall have no Gods before me."

With conflict looming around the world in the 1930s, many states enacted flag salute requirements, especially in schools. The steadfast refusal of Witnesses to pledge, combined with their refusal to serve in the military or to support America's war effort in any way, triggered public anger. Witnesses soon became a ubiquitous presence in courtrooms across the country.

The relationship between Witnesses and the courts was complicated, in part because of the open disdain Rutherford and his followers displayed toward all forms of government and organized religion. Rutherford instructed Witnesses not to vote, serve on juries or participate in other civic duties. He even claimed Social Security numbers were the "mark of the beast" foretold in Revelations. The Catholic Church, said Rutherford, was a "racket," and Protestants and Jews were "great simpletons," taken in by the Catholic hierarchy to "carry on her commercial, religious traffic and increase her revenues." Complaints about unwelcome public proselytizing by Witnesses led to frequent run-ins with state and local authorities and hundreds of appearances in lower courts. Every day in court for Rutherford and the Witnesses' chief attorney, Hayden Covington, was an opportunity to preach the true meaning of law to the judges and to confront the satanic government.

In late 1935, Witness Walter Gobitas' two children—Lillian, 12, and Billy, 10—were expelled from school in Minersville, Pa., because they balked at the mandatory recital of the Pledge of Allegiance, and a long court battle ensued. When Gobitis v. Minersville School District (as with Barnette, a court clerk misspelled the family surname) made its way to the Supreme Court in the spring of 1940, Rutherford and Covington framed their argument in religious terms, claiming that any statute contrary to God's law as given to Moses must be void. The Court rejected the Witnesses' claim, holding that the secular interests of the school district in fostering patriotism were paramount. In the majority opinion, written during the same month that France fell to the Nazis, Felix Frankfurter wrote: "National unity is the basis of national security." The plaintiffs, said Frankfurter, were free to "fight out the wise use of legislative authority in the forum of public opinion and before legislative assemblies."

In a strongly worded dissent, Justice Harlan Stone argued that "constitutional guarantees or personal liberty are not always absolutes…but it is a long step, and one which I am unwilling to take, that government may, as a supposed educational measure…compel public affirmations which violate their public conscience." Further, said Stone, the prospect of help for this "small and helpless minority" by the political process was so remote that Frankfurter had effectively "surrendered…the liberty of small minorities to the popular will."

Public reaction to Gobitis bordered on hysteria, colored by the hotly debated prospect of American participation in the war in Europe. Some vigilantes interpreted the Supreme Court's decision as a signal that Jehovah's Witnesses were traitors who might be linked to a network of Nazi spies and saboteurs. In Imperial, a town outside Pittsburgh, a mob descended on a small group of Witnesses and pummeled them mercilessly. One Witness was beaten unconscious, and those who fled were cornered by ax- and knife-wielding men riding the town's fire truck as someone yelled, "Get the ropes! Bring the flag!" In Kennebunk, Maine, the Witnesses' gathering place, Kingdom Hall, was ransacked and torched, and days of rioting ensued. In Litchfield, Ill., an angry crowd spread an American flag on the hood of a car and watched while a man repeatedly smashed the head of a Witness upon it. In Rockville, Md., Witnesses were assaulted across the street from the police station, while officers stood and watched. By the end of the year, the American Civil Liberties Union estimated that 1,500 Witnesses had been assaulted in 335 separate attacks.

The reversal of Gobitis in Barnette just three years later was remarkably swift considering the typical pace of deliberations in the Supreme Court. In the wake of all the violence against Witnesses, three Supreme Court justices—William O. Douglas, Frank Murphy and Hugo Black—publicly signaled in a separate case that they thought Gobitis had been "wrongly decided." When Barnette reached the Supreme Court in 1943, Harlan Stone, the lone dissenter in Gobitis, had risen to chief justice. The facts of the two cases mirrored each other, but the outcome differed dramatically. Most important, in ruling that Witness children could not be forced to recite the pledge, the new majority rejected the notion that legislatures, rather than the courts, were the proper place to address questions involving religious liberty. The "very purpose" of the Bill of Rights, wrote Justice Robert Jackson, was to protect some issues from the majority rule of politics. "One's right to life, liberty and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, may not be submitted to vote….Fundamental rights depend on the outcome of no elections." Jackson's opinion was laced with condemnation of enforced patriotism and oblique hints at the slaughter taking place in Hitler's Europe. "Those who begin in coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters," Jackson wrote. "Compulsory unification of opinions achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard." Religious dissenters, when seen from this perspective, are like the canary in the coal mine: When they begin to suffer and die, everyone should be worried that the atmosphere has been polluted by tyranny.

Today, the Witnesses still proselytize, but their right to do so is well established thanks to their long legal campaign. Over time they became less confrontational and blended into the fabric of American life.

In the wake of the Barnette decision, the flag and the Pledge of Allegiance continued to occupy a key (yet ambiguous) place in American politics and law. The original pledge was a secular oath, with no reference to any power greater than the United States of America. The phrase "under God" was added by an act of Congress and signed into law by President Dwight Eisenhower on Flag Day, June 14, 1954. Eisenhower, who had grown up in a Jehovah's Witness household but later became a Presbyterian, alluded to the growing threat posed by Communists in the Soviet Union and China when he signed the bill: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resources in peace and war."

Eisenhower's political instincts for the ways that religion functioned in American life were finely honed: Support for the amendment to the Pledge of Allegiance was strong, including an overwhelming majority of Catholics and Protestants as well as a majority of Jews. According to a Gallup survey, the only group that truly opposed the change was the smattering of atheists. In a country locked in battle with godless communism, a spiritual weapon such as an amended pledge that was not denominationally specific made sense. Only after the intervening half-century and more does the "Judeo-Christian" God invoked in the pledge seem less than broadly inclusive.

Sarah Barringer Gordon is the author of The Spirit of the Law: Religious Voices and the Constitution in Modern America.

 


56 Responses to “What We Owe Jehovah's Witnesses”


  1. 1
    Sean says:

    When stating facts you are accurate. When interpreting motives I feel you are way off. Your impressions really don't reflect the reality of the times, unless by opponents of their work. ie: "Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who shrewdly emphasized that the Apocalypse was near" (what was shrewd about it? It was based on the Bible book of Revelation, from Christ Jesus given to John ) or "Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist (were you there?). Or, "He routinely encouraged public displays of contempt for "Satan's world." Anyone who loves what is right would naturally feel contempt for Satan but Rutherford was not motivated by hate. Rather he promoted love for the Almighty God, Jehovah. Your comments seem to impute a fanatical spirit among Jehovah's Witnesses, yet the facts show that they always use peaceful means to preach the "good news of the Kingdom, for a witness to all the nations (not just the U.S.) and THEN the end will come" Since Jehovah's Witnesses have secured freedom of speech and worship in the U.S and Canada, they continue to fight for the same rights for the entire earth and their public preaching has resulted in "a WITNESS to ALL nations". Matthew 24:14 is being fulfilled every day, in all the earth, "and THEN the end (of human government) will come". If you pray for His Kingdom to come, and His will to be done on the earth, as it is in the heavens" (as Jesus told us to in Matthew 6-the Lord's prayer) this is good news. The FACTS support it.

    • 1.1
      Roger says:

      "Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist." Well if did. He was not a people person. He ruled with a mission in his mind. He was stuff.

      Roger

      • 1.1.1
        Hoeras says:

        If a certain thing get repeated a million times, it becomes an "accepted Fact" even when it is NOT.

        In the above article is one such instance:

        "Charles Taze Russell, a haberdasher in Pittsburgh, predicted the world would come to an end in 1914."

        That has been repeated to the point that it has become a "fact" that is not challenged.

        But the truth is that this idea was not spread by Russell, but rather people who hated his guts.

        In December 1913, Russell being well aware what was going on, wrote an article that was published in January 1914 – and you never hear about it because the heading said:

        "End of the World in 1914 — NOT the View of Pastor Russell or of the I.B.S.A."

        In this article Russell made it clear that what would "end" was the Gentiles Time Jesus had referred to – NOT the "end" of the world (see how a single word can be abused when taken out of context) and made it clear that nobody could say with any certainty what that year would bring.

        And he didn't know, and he admitted it.

        As it was, when WW1 broke out, some newspaper editors in the US remarked on Russell's ability to finger that year. Amazing.

        Russell never tried to play the prophet. But now you sure are made to think he was.

        One book to read is "Faith on the March" by A.H.McMillan, where McMillan lays to rest a whole lot of inaccurate "history" – invented history. But it still continues. And not challenged. Bring it to a Court where a Judge would have to decide on the Facts, and with some objectivity, the conclusions would be very different than when tried in Public and by the Media only to easily influenced by manufactured scandals.

        Remember that Early Christians were scandalised as being "Cannibals" because they celebrated the Lord's Supper, where Wine and Bread were emblematic of Jesus' blood and body. All good Romans believed that. Must have been true… sigh.

  2. 2
    Steve says:

    I really can't say it any better than did Sean. I just want to add, that despite the perception (as implied by the writer) that Jehovah's Witnesses are shrewdly manipulated and bullied "by an iron fist," the facts prove that we are among the most open minded and uncontrolled people on earth.
    What other religion encourages its adherents to take their faith to the streets, sharing their beliefs with others. Even the newest among Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged to talk to their family, their friends, even their ministers about what they are learning from the Bible.
    Unlike cults, which often cloister their members, Jehovah's Witnesses are so confident that they have the truth, that they put their faith on the line at every door. Rather than hide behind some "iron-fisted" leader, we are willing to discuss our beliefs as well as the beliefs of those with whom we speak.
    We are happy to allow anyone to show us from their Bible (yes, we do believe the Bible to be God's infallible, inspired word), why they feel they have a better understanding or a more correct viewpoint on any and all doctrinal matters.
    Could you find such a welcoming attitude on the part of those who were being led (or misled) in a manner as the writer would have one believe? I think not.
    And, really, I don't believe a group of fanatical cultists could have made such a tremendous impact on the Supreme Court of the U.S. to have accomplished what this writer acknowledges.

  3. 3
    vinny says:

    As a 15 year Zealous Person for Jehovah (and elder) here is my story.

    http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/922

  4. 4
    ted says:

    We are thankful to the "witnesses" for theyre effort of bringing religious freedom in act and speech, but as the two first comments on the article shows ,that some of the group of JW believers feel they have to defend theire beliefs against criticism: I strongly believe and know that they are very far off the track of being real true biblebelieving believers. I have during many years, upon being wisited by the JW at my door even invited them in to try to correct theire misbelieves, but they are absolutely NOT willing to listen with an open mind, they are totally brainwashed and when they feel that they have met somebody with maybe more insight in the Sciptures than themselves they just walk away and you never hear anything more from them.

    Let me challenge you on this: The Bible plainly states that Jehova is the form or the manifistation of the invisible omnipotent spirit God that no man has ever seen or can see. This form of God was THE WORD , the creative and revealed form or being of an invisible God , in which God revealed Himself as the creater of all things and was also an object of worship.
    " In the beginning,," That is how the book of Genesis AND the book of John both start , " was the Word —-
    This was not the preexisting Jesus, as such, but when Jesus was born , this Word was made flesh, which means the form or revealed "substance" of God now is to be found in Jesus Christ , and in Him only, as a continuation of the previous revelation of God through the form of Jehova. " In Him dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form",,Paul says., that in His name,Jesus Christ, all knees shall bow,! Compare with Jes, 46,23 " in My Name every knee shall bow,,
    It is obvious that Jesus Christ is become our Jehova, God with us, a vessel in Whom God is so identified and revealed that " he who has seen me has seen the Father
    There is therefore no salvation anymore in embrasing the OT Jehova, when you miss seing Him , as Jesus, in the last and greater revelation in Which the Allmighty has chosen to place His Name., " If you do not believe that I am He.. you shall perish in youre sins.."
    The invisible God has forever in all eternaty chosen to be revealed in His Son, Jesus Christ, The temple and dvellingplace of God Which further in a later state also will be seen as His Body, the body of all time true believers being a habitation and restingplace of God, " that God shall be all and in all.. and Jesus also as our brother, the second Adam,

    • 4.1
      Ukiah says:

      Ted, I have heard this explanation many times, regarding that Jesus is God almighty, and it makes absolutely no sense at all. When Jesus was on earth, he prayed to his father in Heaven, was he praying to himself?
      What about the scripture in , John 17:3 where Jesus says that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD? And what about the account in Luke 22:42 When Jesus is praying to Jehovah and says, "let, not MY will, but yours take place."
      The Jehovah's Witnesses are to be lauded for being bold enough to stand out and use God almightys name, and they respect they show for Jehovahs firstborn son Jesus Christ! Its a beutiful thing:)
      Most bibles have taken out Gods name (Jehovah) stating it is too sacred, yet God encourages us to pray to Him, and get close to Him. That being the case, we should use His name when we approach him in prayer. For some of the older Kings James Version Bibles, if you look in Psalms 83:18 it will give you Gods name. Its sad that in modern times, most Bibles have taken out His name all together. Makes you wonder!

      • 4.1.1
        Roger says:

        Well said.

      • 4.1.2
        Vinny says:

        You sound like a JW robot.

      • 4.1.3
        NivaZimel says:

        Not only those things, but Jesus called God "MY God," and "MY Father," both when on earth and after he died and was resurrected to heaven BY his God/Father.
        Some say that God was Jesus' God only while he was on earth. But the Bible proves otherwise. At John 20:17, and at Revelation 3:12, Jesus calls God "MY GOD" four times in just the one verse AFTER his resurrection and exaltation to heaven.

        The article had a negative tone that only grudgingly gave admission that Jehovah's Witnesses have done good for religious freedom.
        It sounds prejudiced for no good reason.

        Brother Russell did not want to start another religion. He felt that there were plenty of denominations already. He wanted them to explore the Bible in a different way, by allowing the Bible to explain itself doctrinally.
        This means that if a verse seems hazy in understanding, you will find a clarification if you keep reading, and this is exactly true.
        Church doctrine, however, was built on human traditions, and little of the Bible, so they would have none of it. Brother Russell had no other choice but to find others who sincerely wanted to let the Bible explain itself, and he did.

        If it wasn't for Jehovah's WItnesses fighting for religious freedom, no religion in this country would enjoy it the way they do right now.
        Look up Minersville, Pa., Gobitas, and W. Va. cases involving flag salute. THey are quite interesting.

        "We obey God as ruler rather than men."–Peter

    • 4.2
      Tony says:

      Ted, how come you did not continue?

    • 4.3
      NivaZimel says:

      Ted—
      The verses you cite, from any translation, do not prove Jesus is Jehovah. Here is why:

      John never said Jesus was Almighty God, which he would have had to do if he wanted to indicated Jesus was Jehovah. Rather, John stated he was "WITH God" two times. John 1:2-3
      The Greek in John 1:1 lacks the "ho" before the "Theos" in those verses that designates Almighty God from Jesus/the Word. That is why many BIble translations say rather than the Word was "divine" as a qualitative, rather than definite person. The KJV was a Protestant creation mirroring Catholic beliefs in trinity, and sought therefore to uphold them by fudging on many of their translated verses. (The blatant insertion of words into 1 John 5:7 comes to mind as well. The KJV is the only one I've seen that contain those).

      Jesus is called God's "Son" because he is the offspring of Jehovah, he comes FROM him, and was sent to earth to represent the one who remains in heaven, Jehovah.
      The same with the Father. Jehovah is called the Father because it was from him that all life began, starting with his only-begotten first creation and Son, Jesus.

      Jehovah is Almighty God, the whole person, and only one person, not three.–Genesis 17:1,2; Exodus 6:2, 3;

      Jehovah is the Father of Jesus and us: John 20:17; Luke 1:31, 32;

      Jehovah/the Father is the "Most High God", excluding Jesus
      –Ps 83:18 KJV

      The Father is also simply called "God": 1 Corinthians 8:6. This is because the one writing the letter did not feel it necessary to spell out all of Jehovah's titles every time he was referred to. His readers understood that "God" did not mean Jesus, but the Father/Most High/Almighty/Jehovah. Jesus referred to his Father/Jehovah/Most High in the same manner.

      Jesus IS the SON OF the "Most High"/Jehovah-Luke 1:31, 32, the one "sent" BY the Father/Most High/Jehovah. This is how Jesus represents Jehovah.As an ambassador represents the country he is from to a foreign country is how Jesus represented Jehovah on earth. Neither the ambassador nor Jesus IS the one the represent, but are separate entities.

      When Jesus died he was completely dead, as all humans are, needing a resurrection from death, as we all do. It was his God who resurrected him from death/cessation of life: Acts 2:32
      The "Most High"/Father is also the Almighty, excluding Jesus: 2 Corinthians 6:18

      Just because God put his "name" on Jesus in a way does not mean Jesus is Jehovah any more than God putting his "name" on the children of Israel makes them God.–Numbers 6:27

      Check out the Divine Name King James Version, now available online. It is very good for clarifying who is whom.

      Consider, if you will, the fact that Jehovah never calls Jesus "MY God" like Jesus calls Jehovah/Father/Most High "MY God", making it personal. (see above references).

    • 4.4
      Hoeras says:

      Brainwashed?

      Oh boy, the Trinity has an amazing ability to do just that.

      The Jews don't believe in a Trinity.

      Never did.

      Were they brainwashed by Moses NOT to believe it?

      In the meantime the Egyptians, the Assyrians, the Babylonians etc, all proving enemies of the Jews, the DID believe in the Trinity.

      The original Trinity was The Father, The Mother and the Son.

      In Babylonian Trinity, Nimrod was BOTH the Father AND the Son at the same time. How?

      Nimrod's biological father died, and then he married his MOTHER, Semiramis.

      This made Nimrod his own Father so-to-speak. Father and Son at the same time.

      Sounds familiar?

      Then when, according to Jewish accounts, Seth killed Nimrod. The surviving Queen Semiramis then did something that became more common later:

      She had Nimrod DEIFIED as a GOD.

      That made Semiramis the "Mother of God."

      Hence the later Egyptian Trinity was Osiris, Isis and Horeb. Father, Mother and "reincarnated" Son. The re-incarnation of Horeb was the current Pharaoh. On some occations the Pharaoh was a woman. Indeed the last Pharaoh of them all was Cleopatra. Yep, no Pharaohs after that.

      Some within the Catholic Church has even suggested that the Third Person of the Trinity should have been Mary, as she is the "Mother of God."

      The late Pope Paul II supported Maryolatry.

      Much of the above was covered in a book by Rev Alexander Hislop in "The Two Babylons" written about 100 years ago.

      ALSO:

      If Jehovah's Witnesses are so brainwashed, then why are they exposing themselves to so many opposing views? Why give them any opportunities at all? This is not the way "cults" are supposed to act.

      Become a Jehovah's Witness and start talking to people at the doors, you have no idea what we hear – THEY PREACH TO US.

      So this idea that we are not open-minded just doesn't wash. We hear it all.

      And oh why do those believing in the Trinity also worship that obscenity called the Cross, the original Sign of Tammuz – the worship of deified Nimrod – that infuriated God when he saw it in His Temple. This was a "pole in the shape of a T."

      A Cross.

      A Phallic symbol?

      I am not going explain what that means here, but it sure is disgusting and if you think God's thoughts, you would know it would be even more so to him.

      OK. I feel I have to say it bluntly. A "Cross" is a penis.

      There, I said it – and sadly it's true.

      And Jesus died "on a tree" – that is a trunk of a tree denuded with his palms above his head.

      Nothing to do with a… sigh.

      So don't play the "brainwashed" card here.

    • 4.5
      René says:

      Read proverbs 8:22-

  5. 5

    [...] their sectarianism but their commendable loathing for the State. As Sarah Barringer Gordon of  American History magazine summarizes, Witnesses were taught to display "open disdain" toward "all [...]

    • 5.1
      SUZY says:

      Jehovah's Witnesses are taught by the examples set forth in the Bible. They are to show respect, and to obey the laws, toward the government of the country in which they live. the Bible teaches us to show love toward all, this does not mean we must agree with those whose beliefs are different from ours, but we should not FORCE our beliefs on others. We present our beliefs to others (as did Jesus), but the people we speak with must decide for themselves whether they want to listen or not. We are imperfect just like everyone else, but strive to be humble (as the Bible teaches), we do not look down our noses (disdainfully) on anyone. If we choose not to associate ourselves with a person or group, it is because we do not care for their actions, this should be the case of ANYONE with set beliefs.

      • 5.1.1
        Vinny says:

        Utter nonsense. My actions are sincere and honest. I simply disagreed with
        the JW blood and blood fractions teaching. And for doing JUST THAT you get shunned and lose all JW relationships including your own family.

        You are outright lying!

  6. 6

    [...] not their sectarianism but their commendable loathing for the State. As Sarah Barringer Gordon of American History magazine summarizes, Witnesses were taught to display "open disdain" toward "all [...]

  7. 7
    Jim says:

    I think it's funny how the article portrays Jehovah's Witnesses as fanatics, yet in the comments the two Witnesses come off as sane, educated people while the dissenters can't spell or offer coherent counterpoints. Who exactly have been brainwashed here?

    • 7.1
      Vinny says:

      Life defending Watchtower land is sure one tough deal.

      The Watchtower is not God's anything. FACT OF LIFE!

      Prove God chose Watchtower JWs.

      Cause I got a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God never chose Watchtower for anything: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      The printed page tells it like it is. MANY PAGES.

      Sorry JWs but you just keep losing all the time.

      Did God get all those EMBARRASSING DATES wrong JWs? (1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, GENERATION OF 1914 ETC)…

      Did God get Vaccinations wrong too?

      And then 21 years later did God change his mind about vaccinations?

      (Or was it possibly because vaccinations were stomping out polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles and more)?

      Did God get organ transplants being, "CANNIBALISM", wrong too?

      And then change his mind again 13 years later saying organ transplants were not cannibalism after all! (how bout that!).

      Did God get, "ALTERNATIVE SERVICE" wrong? (((FOR 50 YEARS))).

      Did God change his mind 50 years later and then say alternative service is now okay to do?

      Who did all those brothers go to jail for JWs? Was it for Jehovah or for the Watchtower Society?

      What about good ole and special BETH-SARIM, JWs? Was Jehovah behind Beth Sarim too? An entire house and property waiting for the ancient worthies to be resurrected and have a place to go to.

      Who was Beth Sarim an embarrassment to JW's? Please tell us.

      Is it reasonable to expect just a little more from God's channel than all this JWs?

      What do you think JWs

      Who did all those witnesses that died because of not getting vaccinations or organ transplants die for? Did they die for God or for the Watchtower Society? You tell me JWs.

      So please, tell me JWs, are you ready to let your little children DIE if for some reason they need blood? Please answer yes or no. Put yourself in that situation right now before it actually happens.

      Are you ready to teach other people in your territory that they too must say no to blood even if death results?

      JWs, Are you also ready and willing to shun your children if they get baptized at like 14 but then say, "sorry, but the JW's just ain't for me", at 18?

      JWs, do you tell your bible studies that the JW's were FLAT WRONG about those organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service, Beth Sarim, 1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, Rape Rules, Sex with animals or sex with the same sex not breaking the marital bond along 500 more things just like these?

      Do you tell your bible studies all about these many mistakes JWs?

      You see, it would be disingenuous of you to only show the one side of the JW picture, don't you think?

      People have a right and you have an obligation to show people the COMPLETE JW PICTURE.

      Most bible studies only know what JW's tell them in their little bible study books. (I bet you all know this now). And NOWHERE does it mention all these problems that destroy the WT Society as being used by God for anything at all.

      If the Bible is True:

      Jesus walked on water.

      Moses parted the Red Sea.

      A Cloud followed the ark of the covenant.

      And the JW religion owns this bad boy: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      Do you see the slight difference here JWs?

      This is why many people after knowing the entire JW range of facts end up walking away altogether. Just like I did almost five years ago now.

      And this despite the fact that we will be judged as wicked, as some apostate, be labeled, shunned and lose almost everything we have.

      Is this fair JWs? Is this scriptural JWs? No, it is neither… and I have examined all the scriptures many times and in great detail. No scripture supports this unfair abuse of power and loss of friends, family and reputation.

      I hope you take the time to honestly examine all these things JWs.

      Be ready to cut-off your own children just because they don't want it. Because you just might have to. It happens more than you know.

      So JWs, the next time you try to push JW's are God's channel today nonsense please do not get offended when I fall out of my chair laughing.

      You all have many questions all over this site that you have put on your lap.

      And then you ALL always run like a fast little rabbits…

      And do the JW dance moves out the door…

      Silly JW's.

      AND THIS IS WHY YOU KEEP GETTING SPANKED!!!

      No JW that I have ever encountered or debated with can defend the sorry JW past plethora of embarrassing mistakes..

      This is where you cross the line, lose badly and then get buried and spanked all on the same thread.

      Why not just say this is a pretty good religion for me and leave it at that?

      Why arrogantly teach that you must be a JW, JW's are the truth, God uses only JW's, JW's are God's people all the while you have pages and pages of PROOF that God never chose the JW's for anything, never got all those things wrong for 100 plus years and has not picked the Watchtower for anything at all.

      This is your problem. And this is where you JWs are in denial. And what you run away from again and again.

      The JW religion is just that another religious institution and nothing more. The facts prove this again and again over and over.

      JW's preach (((THE JW))) message. And that is it.

      You know the one that said (in writing) that the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, before the generation of 1914 died, the year 2000. The JW message that forbids blood transfusions, that forbidded organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service etc etc etc…. The one that says no beards, no holidays, no school sports or plays, no cub scouts, no red cross, no salvation army etc etc etc

      THAT is not the biblical message at all.

      And remember this fact: Before JW's ever showed up on the scene, Christianity was already GLOBAL!!! Now how did that happen do you suppose?

      God's hand is with my life today. Now how does that happen JWs if I left his organization as you al laughably claim??

      It's simply a matter of putting the issues on the table and with an open mind coming to reasonable conclusions based on the whole range of facts and information.

      I have proven to myself (and my family as well as God Himself) that I am willing to be WRONG.That I am willing to be adjusted. That I can accept new information regardless of the consequences.

      After all I became a JW.

      And then I was willing to leave the JW's despite heavy though unfair consequences.

      I am willing to be proven wrong… or right… whatever the case may be.

      Truth is worth the effort and or consequences for me. And the JWs do not have it.

      That's what this journey called life is all about.

      Living with blinders is no way to live at all!

      If the bible is true Jesus did many amazing things to prove God was with him.

      If the bible is true Moses did many amazing things that prove God was with him.

      And this sorry list is what JW's have to prove God is with them today??

      http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      All from their own literature.

      The printed page tells it like it is JWs!

      Like I've said many times now; the Watchtower's greatest enemy today is its own literature.

      Vinny

    • 7.2
      NivaZimel says:

      LOL Thank you, Jim. Your comments are right on.
      When a person leaves their faith, they often show disdain against it afterward as an outpouring of sour grapes, because they could not live the moral or ethical life THEY chose and still remain part of the congregation.
      It's a little like Satan getting thrown out of heaven in Revelation 12:7-9. He was pretty angry after getting "disfellowshipped" (excommunicated) as well, and the world is seeing his anger right now, in every bad thing happening on the inhabited earth.

      • 7.2.1
        Hoeras says:

        Well, well put. LOL

      • 7.2.2
        Vinny says:

        JWs love themselves because they think God chose only them. Which is laughable. :)

        It's true, most Poor JW's here think that JW's are God's "chosen ones" on earth today.

        But just open your eyes JWs and see the real truth here.

        http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm

        Yep, JWs they own that list FOR LIFE!

        All from their own literature. Read for yourself.

        Instead of God's channel exclusively, as JWs says, they are the owner of THAT SORRY LIST– "EXCLUSIVELY"!!!!.

        BIF DIFFERENCE FOLKS.

        As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" the Governing Body (JW leaders) met together and prayed over many things THAT PROVED BAD NEWS AND EMBARRASSMENTS AND EVEN CAUSED MANY JW'S ((((( TO DIE ))))).

        As a "COLLECTIVE GROUP" they had to DROP, REVERSE, CHANGE-UP ON AND APOLOGIZE FOR many sorry teachings and beliefs that should never have been forced on porr little JW's that blindly followed this same collective group.

        Nobody buys this kind of nonsense when seeing the entire picture here.

        You see (as has been posted too many times to remember now) PEOPLE–(((INDIVIDUALLY)))– do make mistakes.

        Even bible writers, apostles and prophets make personal mistakes.

        But COLLECTIVELY–(AS A GROUP OF WRITINGS)– many people say the bible writings are directed by God.

        The bible writers also say this about their writings.

        Which is why the bible is not just "some good book", and nothing more to most people. But is instead followed and applied in life because many people say bible writers get things RIGHT ALL THE TIME.

        You see WT world also has individuals that make mistakes personally. I have no problems with this. Even GB members will fall very short. That's life!

        But you see folks, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between making mistakes personally, and then publishing mistakes COLLECTIVELY AS A UNIFIED BODY.

        When the Governing Body meets ((((( COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY )))) —

        AND THEN PRAYS TOGETHER FOR HOLY SPIRIT COLLECTIVELY AS A BODY—

        STUDIES WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ON SPECIFIC ISSUES (AS THIS COLLECTIVE GROUP) —

        MAKES DECISIONS BASED ON THOSE PRAYERS AND THEIR BIBLE UNDERSTANDING AFTER MUCH THOUGHT, PRAYER AND DELIBERATION —

        AND THEN (((PUBLISHES))) THOSE DECISIONS IN THEIR LITERATURE —

        HAVE C.O.'S AND D.O.'S GIVE OUTLINES BASED ON THESE SAME DECISIONS AT MEETINGS, ASSEMBLIES AND CONVENTIONS PUSHING AND CLARIFYING THESE PUBLISHED TEACHINGS —

        AND THEN HAVE RANK AND FILE JW'S (((BE FORCED TO APPLY))) ALL OF THESE NEW UNDERSTANDINGS AND JW TEACHINGS AT RISK OF JUDICIAL COUNSEL AND DISFELLOWSHIPPING .

        ONLY THEN TO BE PROVEN WRONG, BAD IDEAS, EMBARRASSMENTS; HAVE TO CHANGE THEM, DROP THEM, APOLOGIZE FOR THEM AND MORE —-

        ((((((( IT CLEARLY PROVES THAT GOD WAS NEVER BEHIND THESE IDEAS OR WITH THOSE THAT MADE THEM AND FORCED THEM AT ALL!!! ))))))

        JW's have lost on this thread once again.

        They all get embarrassed even trying to defend all this WT humiliation.

        Take another LOOK:

        http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm

        So folks let's all do a little math JW style!

        1- According to JW's, "God's spirit" is with the JW's while they make decisions based on God's infallible word.

        2- Those decisions are wrong again and again and again. Proving embarrassing mistakes for WT world, causing people to lose out on many things like buying homes, getting education, not having families, kids, pets, not being of 144,00, and more. Those decisions led by the same "God's spirit" also cause some JW's to (((DIE))) and to go (((TO PRISON))) for no reason for many years including RIGHT NOW.

        You see 1914 came and went.

        1925 came and went.

        Beth Sarim (was huge WT embarrassment) and came and went.

        1975 came and went.

        The generation of 1914 came and went.

        The 20th century came and went.

        Vaccinations stomped out polio, diptheria, tetanus, flu, cholera, measles, mumps, yellow fever, rubella and more.

        Organ transplants were never the same as "cannibalism" as Wt land stated and have saved or extended hundreds of thousands of lives.

        Many times dropped doctrinal understanding has been brought back.

        That aint not "light getting brighter" folks.

        That's called (((BLINKING LIGHTS))).

        You see this is why JW's are fighting a losing battle. The WT was never God's anything. One look at the whole picture proves this without a doubt to any rational mind.

        But change is tough for some. It is not easy to see the truth for some JW's.

  8. 8
    Dee says:

    Regarding Vinnie's statements:
    5.1.1
    Vinny says:
    9/29/2011 at 3:55 am

    … I simply disagreed with
    the JW blood and blood fractions teaching. And for doing JUST THAT you get shunned and lose all JW relationships including your own family.

    You are outright lying!
    __________________________________________________
    Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships including their family if they do so.

    Interestingly, because of the effectiveness of alternative non-blood management and the fact that blood is dirty, carrying many diseases, the army is now learning from them how to treat patients without blood. A large body of physicians now believe that blood translations will soon be replaced by alternative, safer treatments. They are becoming the standard of care in many hospitals.

    Meanwhile, blood transfusions continue to kill patients or give them serious health problems such as:

    Transfusion Related Lung Injury (TRALI): In the hours following a transfusion, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, fever are present, and a chest xray will show pulmonary infiltrates. The patient can have great difficulty getting enough oxygen in severe cases. This diagnosis is uncommon, but many believe it is under diagnosed and actually happens in one in every 300-5,000 transfusions, and is the third leading cause of transfusion caused death, depending upon the study.

    Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD): A very rare brain disease that is the human equivalent of mad cow disease. The risk of contracting CJD is extremely low, but it is possible, if a donor was infected with the disease.

    Malaria: Typically transmitted by mosquito, the risk of contracting malaria is low in countries where malaria is uncommon. The risk is far greater in areas of the world, such as Africa, where malaria is frequently diagnosed. Malaria causes fever, shaking chills, anemia, muscle pain and headaches.

    Cytomegalovirus (CMV): A virus that is very common, present in up to 80% of the population. Flu-like symptoms may be present when someone catches CMV, or may not be noticed. People with compromised immune systems may receive blood that has been screened for CMV.

    Babesiosis and Lyme Disease: Spread by tick bites, both conditions cause chronic fatigue. Babesiosis is similar to malaria, presenting with fever, shaking chills and anemia. Lyme is most common near wooded areas where people hike, Babesiosis is most common near Long Island in the United States.

    Chagas: A disease spread by parasites, Chagas is most common in Mexico, Central America and South America. Left untreated, it can cause organ damage, but medication is available through the Centers For Disease Control.

    Syphillis: A very common illness spread by sexual contact, syphillis causes sores on the genitals and sometimes around the mouth. Syphillis is easily treated but can cause significant health problems if left to progress without medication.

    Epstein Barr (EBV): One of the herpes viruses, EBV is believed to be present in the bodies of up to 95% of the population. When EBV is contracted by an adolescent, they risk of developing mono, or kissing disease, is an estimated 30-50%.

    Herpes: While many illnesses are caused by the herpes family of viruses, most people mean genital herpes when they use the term. This virus causes lesions on the genitals and cold sores on the mouth.

    You don't need to learn this from Jehovah's Witnesses. The Internet is full of information on alternative non-blood management and about the risks of blood transfusions.

    Patients heal faster with fewer complications without blood. The Bible command to "Abstain from blood" has proven to be a wise course

    • 8.1
      Vinny says:

      Quote: "Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships
      including their family if they do so".

      **** My Reply: BWAAAAAAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA

      Everybody knows JWs are not allowed to take blood. If they knowingly take blood, and/or do not agree with the JW blood and fraction policy as it currently stands today, then they ARE SHUNNED FOR LIFE, unless they repent in front of the elders and accept all current JW teachings after a period of discipline and being shunned.

      And that is a FACT.

      Some non-bllood treatment is great. I'm all for it. Just like some of the new medical treatments for blocked arteries are better than some of the older techniques.

      BUT THERE ARE STILL TIMES WHEN PEOPLE NEED BLOOD NOW!!!

      AND THERE ARE COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE GLOBE THAT DO NOT HAVE NON-BLOOD TREATMENT CAPABILITIES!!!

      In those cases, many times, the only alternative is DEATH.

      And on top of all this sorry JW blood nonsense, you still have the JW religion with the absolute WORST track record anywhere in the past 100 years.

      Life defending Watchtower land is sure one tough deal.

      The Watchtower is not God's anything. FACT OF LIFE!

      Prove God chose Watchtower Dee.

      Cause I got a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God never chose Watchtower for anything: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      The printed page tells it like it is. MANY PAGES.

      Sorry Dee but you just keep losing all the time.

      Did God get all those EMBARRASSING DATES wrong JWs? (1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, GENERATION OF 1914 ETC)…

      Did God get Vaccinations wrong too?

      And then 21 years later did God change his mind about vaccinations?

      (Or was it possibly because vaccinations were stomping out polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles and more)?

      Did God get organ transplants being, "CANNIBALISM", wrong too?

      And then change his mind again 13 years later saying organ transplants were not cannibalism after all! (how bout that!).

      Did God get, "ALTERNATIVE SERVICE" wrong? (((FOR 50 YEARS))).

      Did God change his mind 50 years later and then say alternative service is now okay to do?

      Who did all those brothers go to jail for Dee? Was it for Jehovah or for the Watchtower Society?

      What about good ole and special BETH-SARIM, JWs? Was Jehovah behind Beth Sarim too? An entire house and property waiting for the ancient worthies to be resurrected and have a place to go to.

      Who was Beth Sarim an embarrassment to Dee? Please tell us.

      Is it reasonable to expect just a little more from God's channel than all this Dee?

      What do you think Dee

      Who did all those witnesses that died because of not getting vaccinations or organ transplants die for? Did they die for God or for the Watchtower Society? You tell me Dee.

      So please, tell me JWs, are you ready to let your little children DIE if for some reason they need blood? Please answer yes or no. Put yourself in that situation right now before it actually happens.

      Are you ready to teach other people in your territory that they too must say no to blood even if death results?

      JWs, Are you also ready and willing to shun your children if they get baptized at like 14 but then say, "sorry, but the JW's just ain't for me", at 18?

      JWs, do you tell your bible studies that the JW's were FLAT WRONG about those organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service, Beth Sarim, 1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, Rape Rules, Sex with animals or sex with the same sex not breaking the marital bond along 500 more things just like these?

      Do you tell your bible studies all about these many mistakes JWs?

      You see, it would be disingenuous of you to only show the one side of the JW picture, don't you think?

      People have a right and you have an obligation to show people the COMPLETE JW PICTURE.

      Most bible studies only know what JW's tell them in their little bible study books. (I bet you all know this now). And NOWHERE does it mention all these problems that destroy the WT Society as being used by God for anything at all.

      If the Bible is True:

      Jesus walked on water.

      Moses parted the Red Sea.

      A Cloud followed the ark of the covenant.

      And the JW religion owns this bad boy: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      Do you see the slight difference here Dee?

      This is why many people after knowing the entire JW range of facts end up walking away altogether. Just like I did almost five years ago now.

      And this despite the fact that we will be judged as wicked, as some apostate, be labeled, shunned and lose almost everything we have.

      Is this fair JWs? Is this scriptural JWs? No, it is neither… and I have examined all the scriptures many times and in great detail. No scripture supports this unfair abuse of power and loss of friends, family and reputation.

      I hope you take the time to honestly examine all these things Dee.

      Be ready to cut-off your own children just because they don't want it. Because you just might have to. It happens more than you know.

      So JWs, the next time you try to push JW's are God's channel today nonsense please do not get offended when I fall out of my chair laughing.

      You all have many questions all over this site that you have put on your lap.

      And then you ALL always run like a fast little rabbits…

      And do the JW dance moves out the door…

      Silly JW's.

      AND THIS IS WHY YOU KEEP GETTING SPANKED!!!

      No JW that I have ever encountered or debated with can defend the sorry JW past plethora of embarrassing mistakes..

      This is where you cross the line, lose badly and then get buried and spanked all on the same thread.

      Why not just say this is a pretty good religion for me and leave it at that?

      Why arrogantly teach that you must be a JW, JW's are the truth, God uses only JW's, JW's are God's people all the while you have pages and pages of PROOF that God never chose the JW's for anything, never got all those things wrong for 100 plus years and has not picked the Watchtower for anything at all.

      This is your problem. And this is where you JWs are in denial. And what you run away from again and again.

      The JW religion is just that another religious institution and nothing more. The facts prove this again and again over and over.

      JW's preach (((THE JW))) message. And that is it.

      You know the one that said (in writing) that the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, before the generation of 1914 died, the year 2000. The JW message that forbids blood transfusions, that forbidded organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service etc etc etc…. The one that says no beards, no holidays, no school sports or plays, no cub scouts, no red cross, no salvation army etc etc etc

      THAT is not the biblical message at all.

      And remember this fact: Before JW's ever showed up on the scene, Christianity was already GLOBAL!!! Now how did that happen do you suppose?

      God's hand is with my life today. Now how does that happen JWs if I left his organization as you al laughably claim??

      It's simply a matter of putting the issues on the table and with an open mind coming to reasonable conclusions based on the whole range of facts and information.

      I have proven to myself (and my family as well as God Himself) that I am willing to be WRONG.That I am willing to be adjusted. That I can accept new information regardless of the consequences.

      After all I became a JW.

      And then I was willing to leave the JW's despite heavy though unfair consequences.

      I am willing to be proven wrong… or right… whatever the case may be.

      Truth is worth the effort and or consequences for me. And the JWs do not have it.

      That's what this journey called life is all about.

      Living with blinders is no way to live at all!

      If the bible is true Jesus did many amazing things to prove God was with him.

      If the bible is true Moses did many amazing things that prove God was with him.

      And this sorry list is what JW's have to prove God is with them today??

      http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      All from their own literature.

      The printed page tells it like it is JWs!

      Like I've said many times now; the Watchtower's greatest enemy today is its own literature.

      Vinny

      • 8.1.1
        Roger says:

        Hi Vinny,

        I am a JW. I am a Ministerial Servant. JW's have messed up dates. To deny that would not be accurate.

        JW's need to provide the best most accurate information available. If they do not have an exact answer or explanation they should say that. If they make a mistake, they should be forth coming with a revision or truth.

        To claim JW's do not make mistakes would be a lie.

        The truth is blood transfusions save lives, to talk against one because you might get a disease seems to me…well stupid. Yes there are other stuff a doctor may be able to use other than blood. If JW's allowed them I would take one if it was needed and so would other JW's.

        However, our current view is to stay away from blood transfusions, and I am OK with that.

        So to my other brothers and sisters. I will not take a blood transfusion because our beliefs say we would be violating Jehovah's rules. But please use caution when talking about transfusions causing harm. They can cause harm. However the fact is they save more lives than they cost. The truth is they save a vast more than they could damage or kill.

        Vinny you said "Living with blinders is no way to live at all!" You are correct.

        JW's do not live with blinders on. They read the bible more per person than any other group of people I am aware of. They are kind people, they are also imperfect people who make mistakes like every other person on this planet.

        Lastly, the bible does not say you must be a JW to be saved. This is important to me. Any JW that would claim that is not telling the truth. We should people what we believe and why. Let people review the material and make their own mind up.

        Enjoy your day.

        Roger

      • 8.1.2
        Vinny says:

        Hello Roger,

        I have no problem if you are a JW. I was one for 15 years. My stepson and brother in law are still JWs today.

        You can see the link to my story a few comments up if wanted. It explains why In am no longer one today. It was not an easy thing to do. But it was the correct thing for me, my wife, and two of three kids.

        Unlike others that have commented here, at least your comments are reasonable. I can respect that. Feel free to ask me anything you want. I am not a JW basher. But I will bash JWs (or anyone) that is dishonest.

        You do need to know that JWs being the only true religion God uses today, and only JWs surviving God's judgment IS a JW teaching. Here are just a few quotes I have saved.

        1919 "Is not the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society the one and only channel which the Lord has used in dispensing his truth continually since the beginning of the harvest period?" {WT Apr 1 1919 6414}

        1933 "To feed or teach his people the Lord has used the Watch Tower publications.. No man is given any credit for the wonderful truths which the Lord has revealed to his people through the Watch Tower publications." {WT Dec 1 1933 263}

        1939 "It should be expected that the Lord would have a means of communicating to his people on the earth, and he has clearly shown that the magazine called The Watchtower is used for that purpose." {YEAR 1939 85}

        1942 "The Watchtower does not consist of men's opinions" {WT Jan 1 1942 5}

        1957 "Jehovah has established a very definite channel of communication through which he deals with his people .. It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the 'slave' as we would to the voice of God." {WT Jun 15 1957 370}

        "As the voice of God"…(I am not making this stuff up).

        1969 "Jehovah's organization as directed by his 'faithful and discreet slave' class should influence our every decision also.{WT March 15, 1969 172}

        Yep, they "Should influence our every decision also"

        (It's in print. I did not invent this stuff. I couldn't even if I tried. Sorry.)

        1979 [Of those living at the time of Armageddon, only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved] {WT Feb 15 1979 30}

        Watchtower 9/15/93 page 22 : "But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be NO PLACE ELSE TO GO FOR SALVATION"..

        How about that!

        SEPTEMBER 1996 Kingdom Ministry
        Page 1 paragraph 3

        Walk by Faith

        We must also be firmly persuaded that Jehovah is leading us by means of his visible organization under the direction of “the faithful and discreet slave.”(Matt. 24:45-47) We demonstrate our faith when we are “obedient to those who are taking the lead” in the congregation.(Heb. 13:17) Humbly working in cooperation with the theocratic arrangement manifests our trust in Jehovah.

        SEPTEMBER 1, 2004 Watchtower magazine
        Pages 17-18 paragraph 18

        Beware of “the Voice of Strangers”

        Obeying Jehovah’s voice also means obeying Jesus’ voice, for Jehovah himself told us to do so.(Matthew 17:5) What does Jesus, the Fine Shepherd, tell us to do? He teaches us to make disciples and (((to trust “the faithful and discreet slave)))).”

        NOVEMBER 15, 2002 Watchtwoer magazine
        Page 23

        "How Can We Make Our Days Count Before Jehovah? Daily reading of the Bible and Bible-based publications provided by “the faithful and discreet slave” DEMONSTRATES OUR WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO GOD AS HE SPEAKS TO US".

        ***** There is is folks, ALL IN PRINT. And there is plenty more I can post too!

        So what is this saying"

        "IS NOT THE WT BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY THE ONE AND ONLY CHANNEL THE LORD HAS USED."

        "THE WT MAGAZINE IS GOD'S MEANS OF COMMUNICATING WITH HIS PEOPLE ON THE EARTH"

        "THE WT DOES NOT CONSIST OF MEN'S OPINIONS"

        "WE SHOULD RESPOND TO JEHOVAH'S VERY DEFINITE CHOSEN CHANNEL AS THE VOICE OF GOD"

        "THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE CLASSS SHOULD INFLUENCE OUR EVERY DECISION"

        "WE MUST FIRMLY BELIEVE JEHOVAH IS LEADING US MY MEANS OF THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE AND BE OBEDIENT"

        "DAILY READING THE BIBLE AND WT PUBLICATIONS DEMONSTRATES OUR WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO GOD AS HE SPEAKS TO US".

        ***** No other way to interpret it here folks. Watchtower thinks God directs and uses them and only them.

        The problem is …. following the WT Society this has led to much:
        PAIN AND SUFFERING…

        DEATH…
        EMBARRASSMENTS…
        LOST OPPORTUNITIES…
        BROKEN FAMILIES…
        UNFAIR SHUNNING…
        AND MORE!!!

        But God was never behind any of THIS:

        http://www1.tip.nl/%7Et661020/wtcitaten/part1.htm

        You see, JW's like to then say that the holy spirit revealed their mistakes and they changed up on them afterwards.

        But many changes were because they had no choice but to change since many of their PUBLISHED WRITINGS never came true.

        1925 for example.

        LETS TAKE ANOTHER LITTLE WATCHTOWER STROLL ABOUT 1925:

        1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89.

        1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914." The Watchtower 9/1/22, page 262.

        Once again, as with the 1914 date, the revelation was attributed to "God Himself".

        1922 This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct …(Watchtower, July 15, 1922, p. 217)

        1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, page 106 4-23.

        1925- "We have no doubt whatever in regard to the chronology relating to the dates of .. 1925.. What further evidence do we need? Using this same measuring line .. it is an easy matter to locate 1925, probably in the fall, for the beginning of the antitypical jubilee. There can be no more question about 1925 than there was about 1914." {WT May 15 1922 page 150}

        1925-

        "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year." The Watchtower, 1/1/25, page. 3.

        1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 p262

        ***** Yep all this, IN WRITING, about 1925.

        Now, did the light get brighter JW's?

        NOPE! NOT AT ALL.

        So then what happened?

        Here is what happened.

        1925 …. CAME….. ANNNNDDD……….. WENT!!!!!

        Now we can all see how this ruins WT claims that light got brighter and that God was behind any of these PUBLISHED WT TEACHINGS.

        All they were was big EMBARRASSMENTS.

        But it got worse!

        Notice how WT world tried to lay the blame on those poor little JW's:

        1926 The Watchtower, page 232. "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything."

        (AMAZINGLY, THE WATCHTOWER ACTUALLY BLAMES THE JW'S, "INFLATED IMAGINATIONS", WITH THAT ONE).

        BUT IT STILL GOT WORSE AGAIN!!!

        Then came good ole BETH SARIM!!!

        March 15, 1930 San Diego Sun: "San Diego Mansion — With All Modern Improvements — Awaits Earthly Return of Prophets."

        Jan 9, 1931 San Diego Sun, "David's House Waits for Owner." A reporter asked Rutherford how he thought those ancient men would look and he replied he thought they would arrive in frock coats, high hats, canes and spats!

        Perhaps due to the embarrassment of such a ridiculous statement, a year later in 1932, the booklet, "What You Need" showed an illustration of those old prophets in ancient garb. It wasn't the first time JFR would stick his foot in his mouth. Nor was it the last.

        This same newspaper article stated that in the garage, "stands a new, yellow 16-cylinder coupe which will be turned over to the rulers along with all the personal property of the place."

        (The end never came, the "ancient worthies" never resurrected and Beth-Sarim was quietly sold in 1947.)

        But just like 1914 and 1925 BETH SARIM ……CAME… ANNNNDDDD………. WENT!

        See we can go on and on. Many things like these never had new light at all. Their published writings simply NEVER CAME TRUE!!!

        And here is the other problem for JW's and silly "refining claims".

        How can God refine a bad idea for the JW's, but at the very same time lead them to (((NEW))) BAD IDEAS?

        Explain that one?

        For example, if in 1980 God was "refining" the sorry Organ Transplant is "CANNIBALISM" WT embarrassment deal. Then how could he allow ALL THIS AFTERWARDS:

        "The apostle Paul was spearheading the Christian missionary activity. He was also laying a foundation for a work that would be completed in our 20th century." {WT Jan 1 1989 12} [bound volume changed "20th century" to "day"]

        ".. there are many indications that 'the end' is much closer than that [the turn of the century]" {WT Mar 1 1984 18-9}

        "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the 'battle in the day of Jehovah' will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." {TNSK 216}

        "For the year 2000, I visualize a world transformed into a beautiful paradise! But I don't think that either the present world or its rulers will live to see that day.. We are living in the last days of the system of things." {AWAK Nov 8 1986 78}

        **** ON AND ON WE CAN GO WITH BAD IDEAS AND MISTAKES FROM WATCHTOWER-WORLD.

        The sorry JW attempts to excuse all those mistakes is DEAD ON ARRIVAL.

        The JW's claim God is using only them (JUST READ THEIR OWN QUOTES ABOVE) all the while they have had pathetic embarrassments their entire 100 plus year existence.

        Yep, that would be the same DEAD ON ARRIVAL as all that WT embarrassments were when they first came off the presses … D.O.A..

        God was never behind any of it!

        Is just not true. The only folks that think JW's are chosen by God are JW's about JW's and that is it.

        Which is one reason why I am no longer one.

        Just telling you how it is.

        Feel free to share your thoughts David

        Vinny

    • 8.2
      edith says:

      my mother was NOT one of jehovah's witnesses, the Doctor told her she needed 1/2 pint of blood, she accepted it. she Died frm Trali! Transfusion related accute lung injury! she died because of a blood transfusion.
      Many years earlier in my life My hemagloblin was down to 4 it took almost 2 more days to stop the bleeding! I am still living approx 35 years later !Back then there wasn't much information on expanders and such. I also had 3 bloodless c sections 38,36,34 years ago.As well as other surgeries with out blood.
      Blood use is extremely dangerous! You may died soon after a transfusion like my mom did, or you may have to live for years, being sickly from the various diseases that you contact from a transfusion. My aunt was NOT a Jehovah witness, she got lukeimia from a blood ransfusion! Did you know that people with Diabetes are not suppose to give Blood to be used for transfusions! I didn't know that until my mom started having problems with her glucose jumping up and down then I did research about diabetics.How else would sh be having problems with diebetes? She was never a diabetic! IF your told you'll die if you don't take blood, do the research!
      Have agood and safe life!

      Everyone can see how dangerous blood transfusions are today! Jehovah's Witnesses are the reason that there are new types of help in the bloodless field! The Bible tells us to obstain from blood! we do and live healthier lives because of it!

      • 8.2.1
        Vinny says:

        Quote: "Jehovah's Witnesses are the reason that there are new types of help in the bloodless field! The Bible tells us to obstain from blood! we do and live healthier lives because of it!"

        **** Nonsense. JWs abstain from life saving blood transfusions and then DIE.

        JW's are told they cannot take blood transfusions in situations where they might need one (such as through accidents or complications with surgery, pregnancy or child birth).

        So, naturally, more JW's will die. No exaggeration at all!

        Just like this mother died unnecessarily!

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7078455.stm

        And now her husband has no wife and her two new twins have no mother.

        And all for what?

        Or this teenager that also DIED:

        http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/8690785.stm

        This is very simple. JW's NEEDLESSLY die for this sorry blood policy today.

        From the same organization that has an entire 100 + year history of similar bad and embarrasing policies.

        This is why I suggest to anybody thinking of becoming a JW … to READ READ AND READ UP ON THIS RELIGION FIRST!

        The proof will clearly stand out that the JW faith is not what they try to tell people they are!

        The facts are Irrefutable.

        Vinny

      • 8.2.2
        NivaZimel says:

        Edith, it is NEVER a bad idea to take Bible counsel seriously, nor is it a GOOD idea to listen to apostates' sour grapes. There are a LOT of 'posers' on the internet, prowling around to get people into debates and make them doubt, like Satan did with Eve.

        Simply put, the Bible TELLS Christians to "abstain from blood," (Acts 15:20, 29) several times in both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
        Here's a good example of the meaning of "ABSTAIN":
        If you were an alcoholic and told you would die if you took one more drink, would you then go home and hook a bottle of Jim Beam up to an IV and still claim you were "abstaining" from alcohol? Hardly.
        Dittos with blood. God knew that technology would come in the future that would allow blood to be transfused via a tiny needle. That is the very reason he had the word "abstain" used in those verses, so that Christians today could transcend technology and language and understand exactly what God tells us to do. It's for our own GOOD.

        PS
        I had three major surgeries in five years without one drop of blood, and I am a healthy person today, thanks to the willingness of my doctors to accept literature I gave them which explains my stand on blood. My surgeon didn't even take it, as he had read it before. So I gave it to one of the surgical nurses who hadn't seen it.
        Hang in there, Edith, and dont bother getting involved with apostates and naysayers who only want to argue, do not know you, and certainly do not have your best interest at heart. Jehovah God does.
        Read the Bible and follow the admonitions in it, and you cannot go wrong.
        Their end will be according to their works.

  9. 9
    • 9.1
      Lisa says:

      Quote: "Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships including their family if they do so."

      The above is a lie.

      Shame on you!

      • 9.1.1
        Roger says:

        Lisa your comment was not accurate. A JW that takes a blood transfusion can be shunned by other JW's.

        Shame on you for not be candid when writing that to Vinny.

        Roger

    • 9.2
      Vinny says:

      That was completely useless. I have no problem with non-blood treatment when such will save my life. But there are times when YOU NEED BLOOD NOW!!!

      And there are third world countries all over this planet that do not have ANY of these kinds of newer, more advanced, non-blood treatments.

      So what happens to them Dee?

      Yep, they die.

      All for a religion that has gotten more things wrong over the past 100 years than any other religion. http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      And all claimed as "Food from God Himself.

      What a hoot!

      :)

    • 9.3
      Jonadab says:

      Jehovah's witness obey God rather than me that is why they fight to get the freedom of worship in fact i love being one of them and will die being a witness

      • 9.3.1
        Vinny says:

        You are then a brainwashed cult member rather than a true christian as you want to believe. You drink the Watchtower Koolaid.

        Because the truth is that the JW religion is not what they tell you they are.

        But, to see and know that (as I now do) you would have to take off those JW BLINDERS.

        You poor thing.

        Hey, just Google Jehovah's Witnesses and see what happens.

  10. 10
    david says:

    we never predicter the end of the world would be on any of those dates vinny. We don't get shunned for life if we do take blood.accually we are ecouraged to take in cosideration to come back into the truth after a wrong doing but only if that sin wasn't too serios.we are not allowed to take full portons of blood.howerver we do take partial blood types like plasma.blood is sacred and should not betaken and put in someone elses body.we don't get shunned because we left the truth.and if we do end up dying of not having blood I would hpoe to see all of you non believers in the paradise on earth

    • 10.1
      Vinny says:

      Poor David is lost and confused.

      The JW religion did say, in writing, that the end would come in 1914 and then again in 1925. Was Jehovah directing all that?

      1914 and 1925 came and went.

      They were proven false predictions. Period.

      They also created Beth Sarim in California (Google it) and predicted the resurrected ones would be living in the mansion there. Only it never happened.

      Beth Sarim came and went.

      They also said the end very likely would happen in 1975 and even commended (in the watchtower) witnesses for selling their houses and pioneering because of it.

      But 1975 came and went!

      They also said (for many decades) that the end would come before the generation born in 1914 would pass away. In fact up until 1995 it was written inside each Awake magazine cover.

      Only they then had to change that meaning as well (including the Awake masthead) because that generation CAME AND WENT TOO.

      I mean, be honest with yourselves for a minute here people.

      Jehovah's Witnesses predicted the end of the world, IN WRITING, numerous times. Not once did they come true. They truly are known for their False Predictions the world over.

      JW's are taught that they alone are TRUE Christians and that all other people not JW will soon be destroyed. This is no exaggeration.

      JW's will allow their own children TO DIE rather than accept a life saving blood transfusion even in severe medical emergencies. It has already happened THOUSANDS of times!

      JW's used to forbid Vaccinations and Organ Transplants (calling a life saving transplant "Cannibalism") for a combined 33 years.

      JW's enforce extreme shunning for any member that decides to leave their religion or who commits a sin without showing enough repentance in front of the elders.

      Families have been devastated because of these harsh shunning policies. I have literally seen Parents cut off all ties with their children solely because the kid did not want to remain a JW but went in another direction.

      Just a few things people need to know.

      I was a JW (and elder) for 15 years before leaving because of their blood and fractions policy six years ago. Today I am shunned by all JW's (including the stepson I raised for those 15 years) simply because I left the faith. Amazing but true.

      Most JW individuals simply accept everything the Watchtower teaches and says. Just like I did.

      Most believe God has chosen the Watchtower Society as his "channel", which provides food from God Himself to their religion and ONLY their religion.

      But an honest look at the facts and history of the JW religion shows God has not chosen the Watchtower for anything!

      Take a LOOK:

      http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      ALL FROM THEIR OWN LITERATURE WITH DATES AND PAGES TO SEE FOR YOURSELVES!!!

      Pages and pages of mistakes, embarrassments, false predictions, medical disasters, weird science, doctrinal failures and more for over 100 years now.

      Obviously "GOD" would not get things wrong like this. Obviously God did not provide bad food like that for their entire history.

      But most JW's have no idea about these things. They are told to stay away from anything critical of their religion.

      Which is why anybody thinking of becoming one should Examine Examine Examine.

      The JW religion is NOT what they like say about themselves. There is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using the WT Society as JW's claim and believe.

      For examaple: Was God's spirit with JW's when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience matter" in 1961?

      OR,

      Was God"s spirit with WT when they THEN SAID Organ Transplants are same as "Cannibalism" in 1967and forbid them?

      Or was God's spirit with the Watchtower Society when they THEN SAID Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980 and now allow them?

      Was God behind all those changes each time?

      Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time?

      Did God cause folks TO DIE by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God?

      AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!!

      We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

      Just being honest.

      Vinny

      • 10.1.1
        Roger says:

        Vinny,

        I was directed to this site while researching the Pledge of Allegiance.

        Anyway, I never have liked the application of firm dates to any type of prophesies. If Jehovah wanted us to know exact dates, it is my belief they would have been listed in the Bible.

        Therefore dates are unimportant to me. Jehovah's day will come. May he forgive all who gave out bad information and made calculators more important than they are.

        Roger

      • 10.1.2
        james says:

        Jehovah's witnesses are not the only ones that have gotten dates wrong…
        how many times have people claimed a rapture would happen on a particular date… and it never happened.

    • 10.2
      Roger says:

      David,

      We did tell people more than you admit. What you are not going to tell Vinny the TRUTH?

      Look your comment makes you look like a clown. Why do you think the organization changed its interpretation of 1914? Because we had it wrong.

      Roger

  11. 11
    nottellingyouhaha says:

    haha
    When stating facts you are accurate. When interpreting motives I feel you are way off. Your impressions really don't reflect the reality of the times, unless by opponents of their work. ie: "Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who shrewdly emphasized that the Apocalypse was near" (what was shrewd about it? It was based on the Bible book of Revelation, from Christ Jesus given to John ) or "Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist (were you there?). Or, "He routinely encouraged public displays of contempt for "Satan's world." Anyone who loves what is right would naturally feel contempt for Satan but Rutherford was not motivated by hate. Rather he promoted love for the Almighty God, Jehovah. Your comments seem to impute a fanatical spirit among Jehovah's Witnesses, yet the facts show that they always use peaceful means to preach the "good news of the Kingdom, for a witness to all the nations (not just the U.S.) and THEN the end will come" Since Jehovah's Witnesses have secured freedom of speech and worship in the U.S and Canada, they continue to fight for the same rights for the entire earth and their public preaching has resulted in "a WITNESS to ALL nations". Matthew 24:14 is being fulfilled every day, in all the earth, "and THEN the end (of human government) will come". If you pray for His Kingdom to come, and His will to be done on the earth, as it is in the heavens" (as Jesus told us to in Matthew 6-the Lord's prayer) this is good news. The FACTS support it.

    Reply
    1.1Roger says:
    4/14/2012 at 10:37 pm
    "Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist." Well if did. He was not a people person. He ruled with a mission in his mind. He was stuff.

    Roger

    Reply
    2Steve says:
    1/28/2011 at 9:48 am
    I really can't say it any better than did Sean. I just want to add, that despite the perception (as implied by the writer) that Jehovah's Witnesses are shrewdly manipulated and bullied "by an iron fist," the facts prove that we are among the most open minded and uncontrolled people on earth.
    What other religion encourages its adherents to take their faith to the streets, sharing their beliefs with others. Even the newest among Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged to talk to their family, their friends, even their ministers about what they are learning from the Bible.
    Unlike cults, which often cloister their members, Jehovah's Witnesses are so confident that they have the truth, that they put their faith on the line at every door. Rather than hide behind some "iron-fisted" leader, we are willing to discuss our beliefs as well as the beliefs of those with whom we speak.
    We are happy to allow anyone to show us from their Bible (yes, we do believe the Bible to be God's infallible, inspired word), why they feel they have a better understanding or a more correct viewpoint on any and all doctrinal matters.
    Could you find such a welcoming attitude on the part of those who were being led (or misled) in a manner as the writer would have one believe? I think not.
    And, really, I don't believe a group of fanatical cultists could have made such a tremendous impact on the Supreme Court of the U.S. to have accomplished what this writer acknowledges.

    Reply
    3vinny says:
    1/28/2011 at 7:04 pm
    As a 15 year Zealous Person for Jehovah (and elder) here is my story.

    http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/922

    Reply
    4ted says:
    1/31/2011 at 7:04 pm
    We are thankful to the "witnesses" for theyre effort of bringing religious freedom in act and speech, but as the two first comments on the article shows ,that some of the group of JW believers feel they have to defend theire beliefs against criticism: I strongly believe and know that they are very far off the track of being real true biblebelieving believers. I have during many years, upon being wisited by the JW at my door even invited them in to try to correct theire misbelieves, but they are absolutely NOT willing to listen with an open mind, they are totally brainwashed and when they feel that they have met somebody with maybe more insight in the Sciptures than themselves they just walk away and you never hear anything more from them.

    Let me challenge you on this: The Bible plainly states that Jehova is the form or the manifistation of the invisible omnipotent spirit God that no man has ever seen or can see. This form of God was THE WORD , the creative and revealed form or being of an invisible God , in which God revealed Himself as the creater of all things and was also an object of worship.
    " In the beginning,," That is how the book of Genesis AND the book of John both start , " was the Word —-
    This was not the preexisting Jesus, as such, but when Jesus was born , this Word was made flesh, which means the form or revealed "substance" of God now is to be found in Jesus Christ , and in Him only, as a continuation of the previous revelation of God through the form of Jehova. " In Him dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form",,Paul says., that in His name,Jesus Christ, all knees shall bow,! Compare with Jes, 46,23 " in My Name every knee shall bow,,
    It is obvious that Jesus Christ is become our Jehova, God with us, a vessel in Whom God is so identified and revealed that " he who has seen me has seen the Father
    There is therefore no salvation anymore in embrasing the OT Jehova, when you miss seing Him , as Jesus, in the last and greater revelation in Which the Allmighty has chosen to place His Name., " If you do not believe that I am He.. you shall perish in youre sins.."
    The invisible God has forever in all eternaty chosen to be revealed in His Son, Jesus Christ, The temple and dvellingplace of God Which further in a later state also will be seen as His Body, the body of all time true believers being a habitation and restingplace of God, " that God shall be all and in all.. and Jesus also as our brother, the second Adam,

    Reply
    4.1Ukiah says:
    4/29/2011 at 8:00 pm
    Ted, I have heard this explanation many times, regarding that Jesus is God almighty, and it makes absolutely no sense at all. When Jesus was on earth, he prayed to his father in Heaven, was he praying to himself?
    What about the scripture in , John 17:3 where Jesus says that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD? And what about the account in Luke 22:42 When Jesus is praying to Jehovah and says, "let, not MY will, but yours take place."
    The Jehovah's Witnesses are to be lauded for being bold enough to stand out and use God almightys name, and they respect they show for Jehovahs firstborn son Jesus Christ! Its a beutiful thing:)
    Most bibles have taken out Gods name (Jehovah) stating it is too sacred, yet God encourages us to pray to Him, and get close to Him. That being the case, we should use His name when we approach him in prayer. For some of the older Kings James Version Bibles, if you look in Psalms 83:18 it will give you Gods name. Its sad that in modern times, most Bibles have taken out His name all together. Makes you wonder!

    Reply
    4.1.1Roger says:
    4/14/2012 at 10:39 pm
    Well said.

    4.1.2Vinny says:
    4/14/2012 at 10:42 pm
    You sound like a JW robot.

    5Militant Libertarian » Ave, Imperium! says:
    2/8/2011 at 2:01 am
    [...] their sectarianism but their commendable loathing for the State. As Sarah Barringer Gordon of American History magazine summarizes, Witnesses were taught to display "open disdain" toward "all [...]

    Reply
    5.1SUZY says:
    8/13/2011 at 8:37 pm
    Jehovah's Witnesses are taught by the examples set forth in the Bible. They are to show respect, and to obey the laws, toward the government of the country in which they live. the Bible teaches us to show love toward all, this does not mean we must agree with those whose beliefs are different from ours, but we should not FORCE our beliefs on others. We present our beliefs to others (as did Jesus), but the people we speak with must decide for themselves whether they want to listen or not. We are imperfect just like everyone else, but strive to be humble (as the Bible teaches), we do not look down our noses (disdainfully) on anyone. If we choose not to associate ourselves with a person or group, it is because we do not care for their actions, this should be the case of ANYONE with set beliefs.

    Reply
    5.1.1Vinny says:
    9/29/2011 at 3:55 am
    Utter nonsense. My actions are sincere and honest. I simply disagreed with
    the JW blood and blood fractions teaching. And for doing JUST THAT you get shunned and lose all JW relationships including your own family.

    You are outright lying!

    6FreeWestRadio.com » Blog Archive » Ave, Imperium! says:
    2/8/2011 at 3:17 pm
    [...] not their sectarianism but their commendable loathing for the State. As Sarah Barringer Gordon of American History magazine summarizes, Witnesses were taught to display "open disdain" toward "all [...]

    Reply
    7Jim says:
    9/28/2011 at 4:48 pm
    I think it's funny how the article portrays Jehovah's Witnesses as fanatics, yet in the comments the two Witnesses come off as sane, educated people while the dissenters can't spell or offer coherent counterpoints. Who exactly have been brainwashed here?

    Reply
    7.1Vinny says:
    9/28/2011 at 5:05 pm
    Life defending Watchtower land is sure one tough deal.

    The Watchtower is not God's anything. FACT OF LIFE!

    Prove God chose Watchtower JWs.

    Cause I got a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God never chose Watchtower for anything: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

    The printed page tells it like it is. MANY PAGES.

    Sorry JWs but you just keep losing all the time.

    Did God get all those EMBARRASSING DATES wrong JWs? (1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, GENERATION OF 1914 ETC)…

    Did God get Vaccinations wrong too?

    And then 21 years later did God change his mind about vaccinations?

    (Or was it possibly because vaccinations were stomping out polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles and more)?

    Did God get organ transplants being, "CANNIBALISM", wrong too?

    And then change his mind again 13 years later saying organ transplants were not cannibalism after all! (how bout that!).

    Did God get, "ALTERNATIVE SERVICE" wrong? (((FOR 50 YEARS))).

    Did God change his mind 50 years later and then say alternative service is now okay to do?

    Who did all those brothers go to jail for JWs? Was it for Jehovah or for the Watchtower Society?

    What about good ole and special BETH-SARIM, JWs? Was Jehovah behind Beth Sarim too? An entire house and property waiting for the ancient worthies to be resurrected and have a place to go to.

    Who was Beth Sarim an embarrassment to JW's? Please tell us.

    Is it reasonable to expect just a little more from God's channel than all this JWs?

    What do you think JWs

    Who did all those witnesses that died because of not getting vaccinations or organ transplants die for? Did they die for God or for the Watchtower Society? You tell me JWs.

    So please, tell me JWs, are you ready to let your little children DIE if for some reason they need blood? Please answer yes or no. Put yourself in that situation right now before it actually happens.

    Are you ready to teach other people in your territory that they too must say no to blood even if death results?

    JWs, Are you also ready and willing to shun your children if they get baptized at like 14 but then say, "sorry, but the JW's just ain't for me", at 18?

    JWs, do you tell your bible studies that the JW's were FLAT WRONG about those organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service, Beth Sarim, 1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, Rape Rules, Sex with animals or sex with the same sex not breaking the marital bond along 500 more things just like these?

    Do you tell your bible studies all about these many mistakes JWs?

    You see, it would be disingenuous of you to only show the one side of the JW picture, don't you think?

    People have a right and you have an obligation to show people the COMPLETE JW PICTURE.

    Most bible studies only know what JW's tell them in their little bible study books. (I bet you all know this now). And NOWHERE does it mention all these problems that destroy the WT Society as being used by God for anything at all.

    If the Bible is True:

    Jesus walked on water.

    Moses parted the Red Sea.

    A Cloud followed the ark of the covenant.

    And the JW religion owns this bad boy: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

    Do you see the slight difference here JWs?

    This is why many people after knowing the entire JW range of facts end up walking away altogether. Just like I did almost five years ago now.

    And this despite the fact that we will be judged as wicked, as some apostate, be labeled, shunned and lose almost everything we have.

    Is this fair JWs? Is this scriptural JWs? No, it is neither… and I have examined all the scriptures many times and in great detail. No scripture supports this unfair abuse of power and loss of friends, family and reputation.

    I hope you take the time to honestly examine all these things JWs.

    Be ready to cut-off your own children just because they don't want it. Because you just might have to. It happens more than you know.

    So JWs, the next time you try to push JW's are God's channel today nonsense please do not get offended when I fall out of my chair laughing.

    You all have many questions all over this site that you have put on your lap.

    And then you ALL always run like a fast little rabbits…

    And do the JW dance moves out the door…

    Silly JW's.

    AND THIS IS WHY YOU KEEP GETTING SPANKED!!!

    No JW that I have ever encountered or debated with can defend the sorry JW past plethora of embarrassing mistakes..

    This is where you cross the line, lose badly and then get buried and spanked all on the same thread.

    Why not just say this is a pretty good religion for me and leave it at that?

    Why arrogantly teach that you must be a JW, JW's are the truth, God uses only JW's, JW's are God's people all the while you have pages and pages of PROOF that God never chose the JW's for anything, never got all those things wrong for 100 plus years and has not picked the Watchtower for anything at all.

    This is your problem. And this is where you JWs are in denial. And what you run away from again and again.

    The JW religion is just that another religious institution and nothing more. The facts prove this again and again over and over.

    JW's preach (((THE JW))) message. And that is it.

    You know the one that said (in writing) that the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, before the generation of 1914 died, the year 2000. The JW message that forbids blood transfusions, that forbidded organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service etc etc etc…. The one that says no beards, no holidays, no school sports or plays, no cub scouts, no red cross, no salvation army etc etc etc

    THAT is not the biblical message at all.

    And remember this fact: Before JW's ever showed up on the scene, Christianity was already GLOBAL!!! Now how did that happen do you suppose?

    God's hand is with my life today. Now how does that happen JWs if I left his organization as you al laughably claim??

    It's simply a matter of putting the issues on the table and with an open mind coming to reasonable conclusions based on the whole range of facts and information.

    I have proven to myself (and my family as well as God Himself) that I am willing to be WRONG.That I am willing to be adjusted. That I can accept new information regardless of the consequences.

    After all I became a JW.

    And then I was willing to leave the JW's despite heavy though unfair consequences.

    I am willing to be proven wrong… or right… whatever the case may be.

    Truth is worth the effort and or consequences for me. And the JWs do not have it.

    That's what this journey called life is all about.

    Living with blinders is no way to live at all!

    If the bible is true Jesus did many amazing things to prove God was with him.

    If the bible is true Moses did many amazing things that prove God was with him.

    And this sorry list is what JW's have to prove God is with them today??

    http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

    All from their own literature.

    The printed page tells it like it is JWs!

    Like I've said many times now; the Watchtower's greatest enemy today is its own literature.

    Vinny

    Reply
    8Dee says:
    10/20/2011 at 2:48 am
    Regarding Vinnie's statements:
    5.1.1
    Vinny says:
    9/29/2011 at 3:55 am

    … I simply disagreed with
    the JW blood and blood fractions teaching. And for doing JUST THAT you get shunned and lose all JW relationships including your own family.

    You are outright lying!
    __________________________________________________
    Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships including their family if they do so.

    Interestingly, because of the effectiveness of alternative non-blood management and the fact that blood is dirty, carrying many diseases, the army is now learning from them how to treat patients without blood. A large body of physicians now believe that blood translations will soon be replaced by alternative, safer treatments. They are becoming the standard of care in many hospitals.

    Meanwhile, blood transfusions continue to kill patients or give them serious health problems such as:

    Transfusion Related Lung Injury (TRALI): In the hours following a transfusion, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, fever are present, and a chest xray will show pulmonary infiltrates. The patient can have great difficulty getting enough oxygen in severe cases. This diagnosis is uncommon, but many believe it is under diagnosed and actually happens in one in every 300-5,000 transfusions, and is the third leading cause of transfusion caused death, depending upon the study.

    Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD): A very rare brain disease that is the human equivalent of mad cow disease. The risk of contracting CJD is extremely low, but it is possible, if a donor was infected with the disease.

    Malaria: Typically transmitted by mosquito, the risk of contracting malaria is low in countries where malaria is uncommon. The risk is far greater in areas of the world, such as Africa, where malaria is frequently diagnosed. Malaria causes fever, shaking chills, anemia, muscle pain and headaches.

    Cytomegalovirus (CMV): A virus that is very common, present in up to 80% of the population. Flu-like symptoms may be present when someone catches CMV, or may not be noticed. People with compromised immune systems may receive blood that has been screened for CMV.

    Babesiosis and Lyme Disease: Spread by tick bites, both conditions cause chronic fatigue. Babesiosis is similar to malaria, presenting with fever, shaking chills and anemia. Lyme is most common near wooded areas where people hike, Babesiosis is most common near Long Island in the United States.

    Chagas: A disease spread by parasites, Chagas is most common in Mexico, Central America and South America. Left untreated, it can cause organ damage, but medication is available through the Centers For Disease Control.

    Syphillis: A very common illness spread by sexual contact, syphillis causes sores on the genitals and sometimes around the mouth. Syphillis is easily treated but can cause significant health problems if left to progress without medication.

    Epstein Barr (EBV): One of the herpes viruses, EBV is believed to be present in the bodies of up to 95% of the population. When EBV is contracted by an adolescent, they risk of developing mono, or kissing disease, is an estimated 30-50%.

    Herpes: While many illnesses are caused by the herpes family of viruses, most people mean genital herpes when they use the term. This virus causes lesions on the genitals and cold sores on the mouth.

    You don't need to learn this from Jehovah's Witnesses. The Internet is full of information on alternative non-blood management and about the risks of blood transfusions.

    Patients heal faster with fewer complications without blood. The Bible command to "Abstain from blood" has proven to be a wise course

    Reply
    8.1Vinny says:
    10/20/2011 at 3:20 am
    Quote: "Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships
    including their family if they do so".

    **** My Reply: BWAAAAAAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA

    Everybody knows JWs are not allowed to take blood. If they knowingly take blood, and/or do not agree with the JW blood and fraction policy as it currently stands today, then they ARE SHUNNED FOR LIFE, unless they repent in front of the elders and accept all current JW teachings after a period of discipline and being shunned.

    And that is a FACT.

    Some non-bllood treatment is great. I'm all for it. Just like some of the new medical treatments for blocked arteries are better than some of the older techniques.

    BUT THERE ARE STILL TIMES WHEN PEOPLE NEED BLOOD NOW!!!

    AND THERE ARE COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE GLOBE THAT DO NOT HAVE NON-BLOOD TREATMENT CAPABILITIES!!!

    In those cases, many times, the only alternative is DEATH.

    And on top of all this sorry JW blood nonsense, you still have the JW religion with the absolute WORST track record anywhere in the past 100 years.

    Life defending Watchtower land is sure one tough deal.

    The Watchtower is not God's anything. FACT OF LIFE!

    Prove God chose Watchtower Dee.

    Cause I got a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God never chose Watchtower for anything: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

    The printed page tells it like it is. MANY PAGES.

    Sorry Dee but you just keep losing all the time.

    Did God get all those EMBARRASSING DATES wrong JWs? (1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, GENERATION OF 1914 ETC)…

    Did God get Vaccinations wrong too?

    And then 21 years later did God change his mind about vaccinations?

    (Or was it possibly because vaccinations were stomping out polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles and more)?

    Did God get organ transplants being, "CANNIBALISM", wrong too?

    And then change his mind again 13 years later saying organ transplants were not cannibalism after all! (how bout that!).

    Did God get, "ALTERNATIVE SERVICE" wrong? (((FOR 50 YEARS))).

    Did God change his mind 50 years later and then say alternative service is now okay to do?

    Who did all those brothers go to jail for Dee? Was it for Jehovah or for the Watchtower Society?

    What about good ole and special BETH-SARIM, JWs? Was Jehovah behind Beth Sarim too? An entire house and property waiting for the ancient worthies to be resurrected and have a place to go to.

    Who was Beth Sarim an embarrassment to Dee? Please tell us.

    Is it reasonable to expect just a little more from God's channel than all this Dee?

    What do you think Dee

    Who did all those witnesses that died because of not getting vaccinations or organ transplants die for? Did they die for God or for the Watchtower Society? You tell me Dee.

    So please, tell me JWs, are you ready to let your little children DIE if for some reason they need blood? Please answer yes or no. Put yourself in that situation right now before it actually happens.

    Are you ready to teach other people in your territory that they too must say no to blood even if death results?

    JWs, Are you also ready and willing to shun your children if they get baptized at like 14 but then say, "sorry, but the JW's just ain't for me", at 18?

    JWs, do you tell your bible studies that the JW's were FLAT WRONG about those organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service, Beth Sarim, 1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, Rape Rules, Sex with animals or sex with the same sex not breaking the marital bond along 500 more things just like these?

    Do you tell your bible studies all about these many mistakes JWs?

    You see, it would be disingenuous of you to only show the one side of the JW picture, don't you think?

    People have a right and you have an obligation to show people the COMPLETE JW PICTURE.

    Most bible studies only know what JW's tell them in their little bible study books. (I bet you all know this now). And NOWHERE does it mention all these problems that destroy the WT Society as being used by God for anything at all.

    If the Bible is True:

    Jesus walked on water.

    Moses parted the Red Sea.

    A Cloud followed the ark of the covenant.

    And the JW religion owns this bad boy: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

    Do you see the slight difference here Dee?

    This is why many people after knowing the entire JW range of facts end up walking away altogether. Just like I did almost five years ago now.

    And this despite the fact that we will be judged as wicked, as some apostate, be labeled, shunned and lose almost everything we have.

    Is this fair JWs? Is this scriptural JWs? No, it is neither… and I have examined all the scriptures many times and in great detail. No scripture supports this unfair abuse of power and loss of friends, family and reputation.

    I hope you take the time to honestly examine all these things Dee.

    Be ready to cut-off your own children just because they don't want it. Because you just might have to. It happens more than you know.

    So JWs, the next time you try to push JW's are God's channel today nonsense please do not get offended when I fall out of my chair laughing.

    You all have many questions all over this site that you have put on your lap.

    And then you ALL always run like a fast little rabbits…

    And do the JW dance moves out the door…

    Silly JW's.

    AND THIS IS WHY YOU KEEP GETTING SPANKED!!!

    No JW that I have ever encountered or debated with can defend the sorry JW past plethora of embarrassing mistakes..

    This is where you cross the line, lose badly and then get buried and spanked all on the same thread.

    Why not just say this is a pretty good religion for me and leave it at that?

    Why arrogantly teach that you must be a JW, JW's are the truth, God uses only JW's, JW's are God's people all the while you have pages and pages of PROOF that God never chose the JW's for anything, never got all those things wrong for 100 plus years and has not picked the Watchtower for anything at all.

    This is your problem. And this is where you JWs are in denial. And what you run away from again and again.

    The JW religion is just that another religious institution and nothing more. The facts prove this again and again over and over.

    JW's preach (((THE JW))) message. And that is it.

    You know the one that said (in writing) that the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, before the generation of 1914 died, the year 2000. The JW message that forbids blood transfusions, that forbidded organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service etc etc etc…. The one that says no beards, no holidays, no school sports or plays, no cub scouts, no red cross, no salvation army etc etc etc

    THAT is not the biblical message at all.

    And remember this fact: Before JW's ever showed up on the scene, Christianity was already GLOBAL!!! Now how did that happen do you suppose?

    God's hand is with my life today. Now how does that happen JWs if I left his organization as you al laughably claim??

    It's simply a matter of putting the issues on the table and with an open mind coming to reasonable conclusions based on the whole range of facts and information.

    I have proven to myself (and my family as well as God Himself) that I am willing to be WRONG.That I am willing to be adjusted. That I can accept new information regardless of the consequences.

    After all I became a JW.

    And then I was willing to leave the JW's despite heavy though unfair consequences.

    I am willing to be proven wrong… or right… whatever the case may be.

    Truth is worth the effort and or consequences for me. And the JWs do not have it.

    That's what this journey called life is all about.

    Living with blinders is no way to live at all!

    If the bible is true Jesus did many amazing things to prove God was with him.

    If the bible is true Moses did many amazing things that prove God was with him.

    And this sorry list is what JW's have to prove God is with them today??

    http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

    All from their own literature.

    The printed page tells it like it is JWs!

    Like I've said many times now; the Watchtower's greatest enemy today is its own literature.

  12. 12
    Missy says:

    It takes humility to publicly admit a mistake or error in teachings. We all make mistakes. To say that any other religion is 100% accurate would imply perfection. Corrections are made in everyone's lives who trust in God. Forgiveness? Humbleness? Understanding ? Are we not to have these traits? Must we bash witnesses because they may have had to correct things because they are not perfect ? do we not see that they strive to be as accurate as humanly possible? do you not see that they care so much not only about God but about each and everyone on this planet as they spend their lives sharing their good news with you?

    That is love.

    Also did they ever once add a verse to Gods word the bible to sway anyone to believe things that are untrue?

    Food for thought. :)

    • 12.1
      Vinny says:

      The JW religion claims they are DIRECTED BY GOD. That they alone are "God's Channel".

      Only they keep getting things wrong Missy.

      Which proves 'GOD' is sure not directing anything.

      There are some ex Jehovah's Witnesses who probably stretch the truth and even lie from time to time. (Just like some active JWs do the same).

      But, even the ex-JWs who are 1000 percent truthful, sincere, love God, pay their taxes, help others and more are still SHUNNED by all current JW's and marked as some kind of godless, proud, sinning apostate.

      Now how is that fair?

      The JW religion did say, in writing, that the end would come in 1914 and then again in 1925. Was Jehovah directing all that?

      1914 and 1925 came and went.

      They were proven false predictions. Period.

      They also created Beth Sarim in California (Google it) and predicted the resurrected ones would be living in the mansion there. Only it never happened.

      Beth Sarim came and went.

      They also said the end very likely would happen in 1975 and even commended (in the watchtower) witnesses for selling their houses and pioneering because of it.

      But 1975 came and went!

      They also said (for many decades) that the end would come before the generation born in 1914 would pass away. In fact up until 1995 it was written inside each Awake magazine cover.

      Only they then had to change that meaning as well (including the Awake masthead) because that generation CAME AND WENT TOO.

      I mean, be honest with yourselves for a minute here people.

      Jehovah's Witnesses predicted the end of the world, IN WRITING, numerous times. Not once did they come true. They truly are known for their False Predictions the world over.

      JW's are taught that they alone are TRUE Christians and that all other people not JW will soon be destroyed. This is no exaggeration.

      JW's will allow their own children TO DIE rather than accept a life saving blood transfusion even in severe medical emergencies. It has already happened THOUSANDS of times!

      JW's used to forbid Vaccinations and Organ Transplants (calling a life saving transplant "Cannibalism") for a combined 33 years.

      JW's enforce extreme shunning for any member that decides to leave their religion or who commits a sin without showing enough repentance in front of the elders.

      Families have been devastated because of these harsh shunning policies. I have literally seen Parents cut off all ties with their children solely because the kid did not want to remain a JW but went in another direction.

      Just a few things people need to know.

      I was a JW (and elder) for 15 years before leaving because of their blood and fractions policy six years ago. Today I am shunned by all JW's (including the stepson I raised for those 15 years) simply because I left the faith. Amazing but true.

      Most JW individuals simply accept everything the Watchtower teaches and says. Just like I did.

      Most believe God has chosen the Watchtower Society as his "channel", which provides food from God Himself to their religion and ONLY their religion.

      But an honest look at the facts and history of the JW religion shows God has not chosen the Watchtower for anything!

      Take a LOOK:

      http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm

      ALL FROM THEIR OWN LITERATURE WITH DATES AND PAGES TO SEE FOR YOURSELVES!!!

      Pages and pages of mistakes, embarrassments, false predictions, medical disasters, weird science, doctrinal failures and more for over 100 years now.

      Obviously "GOD" would not get things wrong like this. Obviously God did not provide bad food like that for their entire history.

      But most JW's have no idea about these things. They are told to stay away from anything critical of their religion.

      Which is why anybody thinking of becoming one should Examine Examine Examine.

      The JW religion is NOT what they like say about themselves. There is NO PROOF ANYWHERE that supports God has been using the WT Society as JW's claim and believe.

      For examaple: Was God's spirit with JW's when they said Organ Transplants was a "conscience matter" in 1961?

      OR,

      Was God"s spirit with WT when they THEN SAID Organ Transplants are same as "Cannibalism" in 1967and forbid them?

      Or was God's spirit with the Watchtower Society when they THEN SAID Organ Transplants are NOT the same as cannibalism in 1980 and now allow them?

      Was God behind all those changes each time?

      Did (((GOD))) get all those things wrong each time?

      Did God cause folks TO DIE by listening to the WT Society as the voice of God?

      AND THIS IS JUST ONE THING!!!

      We can do this same song and dance THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

      Just being honest.

      Vinny

      • 12.1.1
        Missy says:

        It's been awhile but somehow I ended up here again and had no recollection of posting.
        I have read things over and over and I just have to say, I'm just a bible student right now, but I do know one thing about these miscalculated dates. I know that the bible tell us that the truth will become abundant in the end. That the light will become brighter for us. So I can definitely understand the need for updates, corrections and "clearer understanding" by means of asking Jehovahs direction. I would not want to question Jehovah on why it took so long.
        About the blood, think of all the witnesses who died by just not handing over a bible, or because they wouldn't salute Hitler, yes, that is the same song and dance. But only out of faith that Jehovah through Jesus will give everlasting life because our lives were given up in Jehovahs honor, doing his will. Ask yourself what the chances of a ressurection would be if you with you giving up your child for Jehovahs honor? After all, he have his son to us. He was even tortured.
        As a whole, the witnesses have by far in my eyes, proved to have love amongst themselves as well as others. We all know how people love to criticize when they are angry and there seems to be a lot of that going on.
        Will that type of behavior earn anyone the favor of Jehovah or his blessings? His Holy Spirit to guide us?
        Probably not. I can not say for sure, but from what I have seen and read, those with a humble heart are who he draws, and keeping that humble heart (even making many mistakes because of imperfection) will make Jehovah happy and he will help guide us. :)

        With that being said, I'd also like to point out all the people worth mentioning in the bible. Not one of them always said or did the right thing, but their love for Jehovah was clear, especially to Jehovah. Think of the silly mistakes they made, and are actually recorded for our benefit!

        I have many questions myself, and I will keep digging for treasure until I find the answers.
        For you Vinny, If you love Jehovah, he will know it by your works :) you don't have to prove it to me or anyone else.

        Keep on seeking first the kingdom my friend.

      • 12.1.2
        Vinny says:

        Missy, are you nuts??? You can't just chalk up little kids DYING for a pathetic blood policy, if they don't have to die, due to God will appreciate your sacrifice. That is embarrassing Missy.

        If Jehovah God is behind the JW religion and "DIRECTING THE FAITHFUL SLAVE — GOVERNING BODY –, then how can there be mistakes again and again and again?

        So when GOD is so-called "refining" one bad idea (say organ transplants for example) He is at the same time directing the JW religion to post NEW mistakes at the same time?

        This is nonsense.

        Mormons believe the same things you do (they are the truth) as do many other religions. But the actual track record of all of these shows God is not directing a single one.

        People who are JWs (or Mormons, Catholics etc) can individually have God's hand and blessings, in my opinion. But no single religion has some kind of monopoly on God as people like you try to claim.

        An no, I am not angry. Just setting the record straight when people like you post such nonsense.

        But your excuses for letting kids die for a man-made policy is absolutely pathetic to read. I doubt you converted a single reader to join your silly religion based on what you just wrote.

        Sorry Missy.

        Vinny

    • 12.2
      NivaZimel says:

      That is absolutely true. And if you don't want to hear the Bible verses we come to share with you and encourage you to think about, you can just say no.
      I walked away from Protestantism years ago and never looked back. I left the church, the area, and what friends, and enemies, I had there, along with the teachings. I did not have a burning desire to get online and excoriate them, saying how wrong their beliefs are and how badly I was treated.
      But it seems as though people who claim to have been Witnesses can't just do that. They don't realize how fanatic and foaming-at-the-mouth they sound against the Witnesses because they are too far blinded mentally, beyond all reasoning.
      Tthis happens because deep deep down in what's left of their hearts they are having twinges of conscience and it makes them angry, like Satan when he was kicked out of heaven, "having great anger…seeking to devour someone."
      If you are so happy with your new life, prove that, please live it and stop trying to take everyone else down with you.

      • 12.2.1
        Aman says:

        Psychologists say exJWs have the same attitudes and mannerisms of people that have come out of a really bad divorce.
        They have the same hatred for their former friends that divorced mates can have for their former spouses.
        How wacked is that?

  13. 13
    Hoeras says:

    There is a wrong impression spread by a vocal minority that most ex-JWs behave this way.

    Not true.

    Some indeed do leave and some even come back. JWs don't feel anything bad nor wish anything bad towards those that leave, sad maybe, but each person is responsible for their own actions and have free will.

    But there is an extremely small and \extreme\ minority of ex-JWs that are so angry and you can see that it is eating them up inside. These are not just ex-JWs, but ex-JWs that turn on previous friends and family.

    They want to give you the impression there are many off them and that all who leave the 'dreaded' Watchtower are \shunned\ and are called \apostates.\

    Not so.

    In fact it is only THEY who are called apostate. It is pretty certain that they have gone past a certain line and while some who leave come back (even some disfellowshipped ones come back), these are not likely to. Unlike Saul/Paul, their motives are not based in misconceptions that can be corrected.

    What is for sure, THEY LOVE THE ATTENTION.

    I think this is a real MARK of these people, THEY want to be noticed, it is all about SELF, and how THEY have been wronged… you get the idea.

    Do some end up with psychological problems? I don't know, but some of them that I have come across have an extremely bad attitude and a hatred for what they perceive as \authority\ that interferes with THEM.

    You get the picture. Very self-centred indeed – in fact the opposite spirit that Jehovah's Witnesses promote, a self-less and self-sacrificing serving nature.

    What is for sure, they are NOT the source of reliable information about Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Expect EVERYTHING to be distorted, and even good things that could be said is twisted – it is oh so simple to demonise, that is why historically people like Hitler was so successful – and remember the rules \the greater the lie the greater it is likely to be believed\ and \repeat the lie enough times and it becomes the 'new' truth.\

    But it ALWAYS backfires on them – because the louder they get, the more will ask WHY? Honest person can see through their hateful nature. Hence, they can be described as \preaching Christ through envy\ – which means the idea that there are no such thing as bad news, since news, for bad or for worse, has a good outcome, comes from the Bible.

    • 13.1
      ART GRIEGO says:

      You never really hear about what a person has found as truth to change what they believe. A person is not shunned because they dont accept the view on blood, as was stated above a rude and negative attitude is involved in motivating a persons removal from the flock of God for a protection. Just leave! If YOU made the choice to be a JW and YOU have changed your mind, that is your problem. If a Catholic chooses not to believe what Catholis teach-LEAVE and start to live a good life. Do not attack people and then make the false claim that you are a good citizen or a christian. Jesus did not stir-up hate. He said to love your enemies and pray for them. That is the Christ-like way.

      • 13.1.1
        Vinny says:

        You must not know how being a JW works. Once you check-in as a JW, you cannot check out without losing every JW relationship you ever had.

        It's like that roach trap commercial. "Roaches check in but they can't check out." :o

        People can't just officially "LEAVE THE JW RELIGION", as you state, without being shunned for life.

        If what I write is TRUE (and it is true) but stirs up hate towards JW religion (as you say) then that should tell you something about the JW religion, rather than about me.

        I defended the religion for 15 years as a JW too. But then one day I had my eyes opened to the real truth about Jehovah's Witnesses.

        As a 15 year Zealous Person for Jehovah (and elder) here is my own story.

        http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/922

        Vinny

  14. 14
    Sophie says:

    But…but…we're not a sect. I'm still a kid, and my mother's a Jehovah's Witness, but what I've seen so far happening around the world proves the organization is not a sect. *sigh* Oh well. This labeling never gets old, eh?

  15. 15
    Ej says:

    For the Jw's on this site. Why are you debating about things you know to be fact? You will not get to these people who always have a reply to something you say.. There is no point or end.. Save your breath and time and use it for actual service.. We know we don't believe that we will be the only ones who will be saved.. We know the Bible tells us not to partake of blood because it is a sacred thing to Jehovah.. So don't waist your time..

  16. 16
    charles says:

    a fair few mistakes about ur religion in this, we do not believe that no one else will be spared in Armageddon, we believe that god will judge them. For all we know jehovah could let Hitler into paradise, it's not up to use to decide

  17. 17
    bwoc says:

    Dear brothers, worry not urselves to convince apostates. D time is coming nd it is here when the world will pass thru its greatest woes-the great tribulation. Yes, the world is passing away nd so is its desires, but he that has done the will of Jehovah remains forever.



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