Jehovah's Witnesses were unlikely champions of religious freedom.
One of the most momentous cases on the Supreme Court docket as war raged globally in 1943 was about a single sentence said aloud by schoolchildren every day. They stood, held their right hands over their hearts or in a raised-arm salute and began, "I pledge allegiance to the flag…" To most Americans the pledge was a solemn affirmation of national unity, especially at a time when millions of U.S. troops were fighting overseas. But the Jehovah's Witnesses, a religious sect renowned for descending en masse on small towns or city neighborhoods and calling on members of other faiths to "awake" and escape the snare of the devil and his minions, felt otherwise. They insisted that pledging allegiance to the flag was a form of idolatry akin to the worship of graven images prohibited by the Bible. In West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, Walter Barnett (whose surname was misspelled by a court clerk) argued that the constitutional rights of his daughters Marie, 8, and Gathie, 9, were violated when they were expelled from Slip Hill Grade School near Charleston, W.Va., for refusing to recite the pledge.
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In a landmark decision written by Justice Robert Jackson and announced on Flag Day, June 14, the Supreme Court sided with the Witnesses. "To believe that patriotism will not flourish if patriotic ceremonies are voluntary and spontaneous instead of a compulsory routine is to make an unflattering estimate of the appeal of our institutions to free minds," Jackson said. "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein."
Jehovah's Witnesses were unlikely champions of religious freedom. The sect's leaders denounced all other religions and all secular governments as tools of the devil, and preached the imminence of the Apocalypse, during which no one except Jehovah's Witnesses would be spared. But their persistence in fighting in the courts for their beliefs had a dramatic impact on constitutional law. Barnette is just one of several major Supreme Court decisions involving freedom of religion, speech, assembly and conscience that arose from clashes between Jehovah's Witnesses and government authorities. The Witnesses insisted that God's law demanded they refrain from all pledges of allegiance to earthly governments. They tested the nation's tolerance of controversial beliefs and led to an increasing recognition that a willingness to embrace religious diversity is what distinguishes America from tyrannical regimes.
The Witness sect was founded in the 1870s, and caused a stir when the founder, Charles Taze Russell, a haberdasher in Pittsburgh, predicted the world would come to an end in 1914. Russell died in 1916; he was succeeded by his lawyer Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who shrewdly emphasized that the Apocalypse was near, but not so near that Witnesses didn't have time to convert new followers, which they were required to do lest they miss out on salvation. This "blood guilt" propelled in-your-face proselytizing by Witnesses in various communities on street corners and in door-to-door visits. Soon the sect developed a reputation for exhibiting "astonishing powers of annoyance," as one legal commentator put it.
Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist. He routinely encouraged public displays of contempt for "Satan's world," which included all other religions and all secular governments. At the time, the number of Witnesses in the U.S.—roughly 40,000—was so small that many Americans could ignore them. But in Nazi Germany, no group was too small to escape the eye of new chancellor Adolf Hitler, who banned the Witnesses after they refused to show their fealty to him with the mandatory "Heil Hitler" raised-arm salute. (Many Witnesses would later perish in his death camps.) In response, Rutherford praised the German Witnesses and advised all of his followers to refuse to participate in any oaths of allegiance that violated (in his view) the Second Commandment: "Thou shall have no Gods before me."
With conflict looming around the world in the 1930s, many states enacted flag salute requirements, especially in schools. The steadfast refusal of Witnesses to pledge, combined with their refusal to serve in the military or to support America's war effort in any way, triggered public anger. Witnesses soon became a ubiquitous presence in courtrooms across the country.
The relationship between Witnesses and the courts was complicated, in part because of the open disdain Rutherford and his followers displayed toward all forms of government and organized religion. Rutherford instructed Witnesses not to vote, serve on juries or participate in other civic duties. He even claimed Social Security numbers were the "mark of the beast" foretold in Revelations. The Catholic Church, said Rutherford, was a "racket," and Protestants and Jews were "great simpletons," taken in by the Catholic hierarchy to "carry on her commercial, religious traffic and increase her revenues." Complaints about unwelcome public proselytizing by Witnesses led to frequent run-ins with state and local authorities and hundreds of appearances in lower courts. Every day in court for Rutherford and the Witnesses' chief attorney, Hayden Covington, was an opportunity to preach the true meaning of law to the judges and to confront the satanic government.
In late 1935, Witness Walter Gobitas' two children—Lillian, 12, and Billy, 10—were expelled from school in Minersville, Pa., because they balked at the mandatory recital of the Pledge of Allegiance, and a long court battle ensued. When Gobitis v. Minersville School District (as with Barnette, a court clerk misspelled the family surname) made its way to the Supreme Court in the spring of 1940, Rutherford and Covington framed their argument in religious terms, claiming that any statute contrary to God's law as given to Moses must be void. The Court rejected the Witnesses' claim, holding that the secular interests of the school district in fostering patriotism were paramount. In the majority opinion, written during the same month that France fell to the Nazis, Felix Frankfurter wrote: "National unity is the basis of national security." The plaintiffs, said Frankfurter, were free to "fight out the wise use of legislative authority in the forum of public opinion and before legislative assemblies."
In a strongly worded dissent, Justice Harlan Stone argued that "constitutional guarantees or personal liberty are not always absolutes…but it is a long step, and one which I am unwilling to take, that government may, as a supposed educational measure…compel public affirmations which violate their public conscience." Further, said Stone, the prospect of help for this "small and helpless minority" by the political process was so remote that Frankfurter had effectively "surrendered…the liberty of small minorities to the popular will."
Public reaction to Gobitis bordered on hysteria, colored by the hotly debated prospect of American participation in the war in Europe. Some vigilantes interpreted the Supreme Court's decision as a signal that Jehovah's Witnesses were traitors who might be linked to a network of Nazi spies and saboteurs. In Imperial, a town outside Pittsburgh, a mob descended on a small group of Witnesses and pummeled them mercilessly. One Witness was beaten unconscious, and those who fled were cornered by ax- and knife-wielding men riding the town's fire truck as someone yelled, "Get the ropes! Bring the flag!" In Kennebunk, Maine, the Witnesses' gathering place, Kingdom Hall, was ransacked and torched, and days of rioting ensued. In Litchfield, Ill., an angry crowd spread an American flag on the hood of a car and watched while a man repeatedly smashed the head of a Witness upon it. In Rockville, Md., Witnesses were assaulted across the street from the police station, while officers stood and watched. By the end of the year, the American Civil Liberties Union estimated that 1,500 Witnesses had been assaulted in 335 separate attacks.
The reversal of Gobitis in Barnette just three years later was remarkably swift considering the typical pace of deliberations in the Supreme Court. In the wake of all the violence against Witnesses, three Supreme Court justices—William O. Douglas, Frank Murphy and Hugo Black—publicly signaled in a separate case that they thought Gobitis had been "wrongly decided." When Barnette reached the Supreme Court in 1943, Harlan Stone, the lone dissenter in Gobitis, had risen to chief justice. The facts of the two cases mirrored each other, but the outcome differed dramatically. Most important, in ruling that Witness children could not be forced to recite the pledge, the new majority rejected the notion that legislatures, rather than the courts, were the proper place to address questions involving religious liberty. The "very purpose" of the Bill of Rights, wrote Justice Robert Jackson, was to protect some issues from the majority rule of politics. "One's right to life, liberty and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, may not be submitted to vote….Fundamental rights depend on the outcome of no elections." Jackson's opinion was laced with condemnation of enforced patriotism and oblique hints at the slaughter taking place in Hitler's Europe. "Those who begin in coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters," Jackson wrote. "Compulsory unification of opinions achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard." Religious dissenters, when seen from this perspective, are like the canary in the coal mine: When they begin to suffer and die, everyone should be worried that the atmosphere has been polluted by tyranny.
Today, the Witnesses still proselytize, but their right to do so is well established thanks to their long legal campaign. Over time they became less confrontational and blended into the fabric of American life.
In the wake of the Barnette decision, the flag and the Pledge of Allegiance continued to occupy a key (yet ambiguous) place in American politics and law. The original pledge was a secular oath, with no reference to any power greater than the United States of America. The phrase "under God" was added by an act of Congress and signed into law by President Dwight Eisenhower on Flag Day, June 14, 1954. Eisenhower, who had grown up in a Jehovah's Witness household but later became a Presbyterian, alluded to the growing threat posed by Communists in the Soviet Union and China when he signed the bill: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resources in peace and war."
Eisenhower's political instincts for the ways that religion functioned in American life were finely honed: Support for the amendment to the Pledge of Allegiance was strong, including an overwhelming majority of Catholics and Protestants as well as a majority of Jews. According to a Gallup survey, the only group that truly opposed the change was the smattering of atheists. In a country locked in battle with godless communism, a spiritual weapon such as an amended pledge that was not denominationally specific made sense. Only after the intervening half-century and more does the "Judeo-Christian" God invoked in the pledge seem less than broadly inclusive.
Sarah Barringer Gordon is the author of The Spirit of the Law: Religious Voices and the Constitution in Modern America.
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When stating facts you are accurate. When interpreting motives I feel you are way off. Your impressions really don't reflect the reality of the times, unless by opponents of their work. ie: "Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who shrewdly emphasized that the Apocalypse was near" (what was shrewd about it? It was based on the Bible book of Revelation, from Christ Jesus given to John ) or "Rutherford ruled the Witnesses with an iron fist (were you there?). Or, "He routinely encouraged public displays of contempt for "Satan's world." Anyone who loves what is right would naturally feel contempt for Satan but Rutherford was not motivated by hate. Rather he promoted love for the Almighty God, Jehovah. Your comments seem to impute a fanatical spirit among Jehovah's Witnesses, yet the facts show that they always use peaceful means to preach the "good news of the Kingdom, for a witness to all the nations (not just the U.S.) and THEN the end will come" Since Jehovah's Witnesses have secured freedom of speech and worship in the U.S and Canada, they continue to fight for the same rights for the entire earth and their public preaching has resulted in "a WITNESS to ALL nations". Matthew 24:14 is being fulfilled every day, in all the earth, "and THEN the end (of human government) will come". If you pray for His Kingdom to come, and His will to be done on the earth, as it is in the heavens" (as Jesus told us to in Matthew 6-the Lord's prayer) this is good news. The FACTS support it.
I really can't say it any better than did Sean. I just want to add, that despite the perception (as implied by the writer) that Jehovah's Witnesses are shrewdly manipulated and bullied "by an iron fist," the facts prove that we are among the most open minded and uncontrolled people on earth.
What other religion encourages its adherents to take their faith to the streets, sharing their beliefs with others. Even the newest among Jehovah's Witnesses are encouraged to talk to their family, their friends, even their ministers about what they are learning from the Bible.
Unlike cults, which often cloister their members, Jehovah's Witnesses are so confident that they have the truth, that they put their faith on the line at every door. Rather than hide behind some "iron-fisted" leader, we are willing to discuss our beliefs as well as the beliefs of those with whom we speak.
We are happy to allow anyone to show us from their Bible (yes, we do believe the Bible to be God's infallible, inspired word), why they feel they have a better understanding or a more correct viewpoint on any and all doctrinal matters.
Could you find such a welcoming attitude on the part of those who were being led (or misled) in a manner as the writer would have one believe? I think not.
And, really, I don't believe a group of fanatical cultists could have made such a tremendous impact on the Supreme Court of the U.S. to have accomplished what this writer acknowledges.
As a 15 year Zealous Person for Jehovah (and elder) here is my story.
http://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com/topic/922
We are thankful to the "witnesses" for theyre effort of bringing religious freedom in act and speech, but as the two first comments on the article shows ,that some of the group of JW believers feel they have to defend theire beliefs against criticism: I strongly believe and know that they are very far off the track of being real true biblebelieving believers. I have during many years, upon being wisited by the JW at my door even invited them in to try to correct theire misbelieves, but they are absolutely NOT willing to listen with an open mind, they are totally brainwashed and when they feel that they have met somebody with maybe more insight in the Sciptures than themselves they just walk away and you never hear anything more from them.
Let me challenge you on this: The Bible plainly states that Jehova is the form or the manifistation of the invisible omnipotent spirit God that no man has ever seen or can see. This form of God was THE WORD , the creative and revealed form or being of an invisible God , in which God revealed Himself as the creater of all things and was also an object of worship.
" In the beginning,," That is how the book of Genesis AND the book of John both start , " was the Word —-
This was not the preexisting Jesus, as such, but when Jesus was born , this Word was made flesh, which means the form or revealed "substance" of God now is to be found in Jesus Christ , and in Him only, as a continuation of the previous revelation of God through the form of Jehova. " In Him dwells ALL the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form",,Paul says., that in His name,Jesus Christ, all knees shall bow,! Compare with Jes, 46,23 " in My Name every knee shall bow,,
It is obvious that Jesus Christ is become our Jehova, God with us, a vessel in Whom God is so identified and revealed that " he who has seen me has seen the Father
There is therefore no salvation anymore in embrasing the OT Jehova, when you miss seing Him , as Jesus, in the last and greater revelation in Which the Allmighty has chosen to place His Name., " If you do not believe that I am He.. you shall perish in youre sins.."
The invisible God has forever in all eternaty chosen to be revealed in His Son, Jesus Christ, The temple and dvellingplace of God Which further in a later state also will be seen as His Body, the body of all time true believers being a habitation and restingplace of God, " that God shall be all and in all.. and Jesus also as our brother, the second Adam,
Ted, I have heard this explanation many times, regarding that Jesus is God almighty, and it makes absolutely no sense at all. When Jesus was on earth, he prayed to his father in Heaven, was he praying to himself?
What about the scripture in , John 17:3 where Jesus says that Jehovah is the ONLY TRUE GOD? And what about the account in Luke 22:42 When Jesus is praying to Jehovah and says, "let, not MY will, but yours take place."
The Jehovah's Witnesses are to be lauded for being bold enough to stand out and use God almightys name, and they respect they show for Jehovahs firstborn son Jesus Christ! Its a beutiful thing:)
Most bibles have taken out Gods name (Jehovah) stating it is too sacred, yet God encourages us to pray to Him, and get close to Him. That being the case, we should use His name when we approach him in prayer. For some of the older Kings James Version Bibles, if you look in Psalms 83:18 it will give you Gods name. Its sad that in modern times, most Bibles have taken out His name all together. Makes you wonder!
[...] their sectarianism but their commendable loathing for the State. As Sarah Barringer Gordon of American History magazine summarizes, Witnesses were taught to display "open disdain" toward "all [...]
Jehovah's Witnesses are taught by the examples set forth in the Bible. They are to show respect, and to obey the laws, toward the government of the country in which they live. the Bible teaches us to show love toward all, this does not mean we must agree with those whose beliefs are different from ours, but we should not FORCE our beliefs on others. We present our beliefs to others (as did Jesus), but the people we speak with must decide for themselves whether they want to listen or not. We are imperfect just like everyone else, but strive to be humble (as the Bible teaches), we do not look down our noses (disdainfully) on anyone. If we choose not to associate ourselves with a person or group, it is because we do not care for their actions, this should be the case of ANYONE with set beliefs.
Utter nonsense. My actions are sincere and honest. I simply disagreed with
the JW blood and blood fractions teaching. And for doing JUST THAT you get shunned and lose all JW relationships including your own family.
You are outright lying!
[...] not their sectarianism but their commendable loathing for the State. As Sarah Barringer Gordon of American History magazine summarizes, Witnesses were taught to display "open disdain" toward "all [...]
I think it's funny how the article portrays Jehovah's Witnesses as fanatics, yet in the comments the two Witnesses come off as sane, educated people while the dissenters can't spell or offer coherent counterpoints. Who exactly have been brainwashed here?
Life defending Watchtower land is sure one tough deal.
The Watchtower is not God's anything. FACT OF LIFE!
Prove God chose Watchtower JWs.
Cause I got a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God never chose Watchtower for anything: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
The printed page tells it like it is. MANY PAGES.
Sorry JWs but you just keep losing all the time.
Did God get all those EMBARRASSING DATES wrong JWs? (1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, GENERATION OF 1914 ETC)…
Did God get Vaccinations wrong too?
And then 21 years later did God change his mind about vaccinations?
(Or was it possibly because vaccinations were stomping out polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles and more)?
Did God get organ transplants being, "CANNIBALISM", wrong too?
And then change his mind again 13 years later saying organ transplants were not cannibalism after all! (how bout that!).
Did God get, "ALTERNATIVE SERVICE" wrong? (((FOR 50 YEARS))).
Did God change his mind 50 years later and then say alternative service is now okay to do?
Who did all those brothers go to jail for JWs? Was it for Jehovah or for the Watchtower Society?
What about good ole and special BETH-SARIM, JWs? Was Jehovah behind Beth Sarim too? An entire house and property waiting for the ancient worthies to be resurrected and have a place to go to.
Who was Beth Sarim an embarrassment to JW's? Please tell us.
Is it reasonable to expect just a little more from God's channel than all this JWs?
What do you think JWs
Who did all those witnesses that died because of not getting vaccinations or organ transplants die for? Did they die for God or for the Watchtower Society? You tell me JWs.
So please, tell me JWs, are you ready to let your little children DIE if for some reason they need blood? Please answer yes or no. Put yourself in that situation right now before it actually happens.
Are you ready to teach other people in your territory that they too must say no to blood even if death results?
JWs, Are you also ready and willing to shun your children if they get baptized at like 14 but then say, "sorry, but the JW's just ain't for me", at 18?
JWs, do you tell your bible studies that the JW's were FLAT WRONG about those organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service, Beth Sarim, 1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, Rape Rules, Sex with animals or sex with the same sex not breaking the marital bond along 500 more things just like these?
Do you tell your bible studies all about these many mistakes JWs?
You see, it would be disingenuous of you to only show the one side of the JW picture, don't you think?
People have a right and you have an obligation to show people the COMPLETE JW PICTURE.
Most bible studies only know what JW's tell them in their little bible study books. (I bet you all know this now). And NOWHERE does it mention all these problems that destroy the WT Society as being used by God for anything at all.
If the Bible is True:
Jesus walked on water.
Moses parted the Red Sea.
A Cloud followed the ark of the covenant.
And the JW religion owns this bad boy: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
Do you see the slight difference here JWs?
This is why many people after knowing the entire JW range of facts end up walking away altogether. Just like I did almost five years ago now.
And this despite the fact that we will be judged as wicked, as some apostate, be labeled, shunned and lose almost everything we have.
Is this fair JWs? Is this scriptural JWs? No, it is neither… and I have examined all the scriptures many times and in great detail. No scripture supports this unfair abuse of power and loss of friends, family and reputation.
I hope you take the time to honestly examine all these things JWs.
Be ready to cut-off your own children just because they don't want it. Because you just might have to. It happens more than you know.
So JWs, the next time you try to push JW's are God's channel today nonsense please do not get offended when I fall out of my chair laughing.
You all have many questions all over this site that you have put on your lap.
And then you ALL always run like a fast little rabbits…
And do the JW dance moves out the door…
Silly JW's.
AND THIS IS WHY YOU KEEP GETTING SPANKED!!!
No JW that I have ever encountered or debated with can defend the sorry JW past plethora of embarrassing mistakes..
This is where you cross the line, lose badly and then get buried and spanked all on the same thread.
Why not just say this is a pretty good religion for me and leave it at that?
Why arrogantly teach that you must be a JW, JW's are the truth, God uses only JW's, JW's are God's people all the while you have pages and pages of PROOF that God never chose the JW's for anything, never got all those things wrong for 100 plus years and has not picked the Watchtower for anything at all.
This is your problem. And this is where you JWs are in denial. And what you run away from again and again.
The JW religion is just that another religious institution and nothing more. The facts prove this again and again over and over.
JW's preach (((THE JW))) message. And that is it.
You know the one that said (in writing) that the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, before the generation of 1914 died, the year 2000. The JW message that forbids blood transfusions, that forbidded organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service etc etc etc…. The one that says no beards, no holidays, no school sports or plays, no cub scouts, no red cross, no salvation army etc etc etc
THAT is not the biblical message at all.
And remember this fact: Before JW's ever showed up on the scene, Christianity was already GLOBAL!!! Now how did that happen do you suppose?
God's hand is with my life today. Now how does that happen JWs if I left his organization as you al laughably claim??
It's simply a matter of putting the issues on the table and with an open mind coming to reasonable conclusions based on the whole range of facts and information.
I have proven to myself (and my family as well as God Himself) that I am willing to be WRONG.That I am willing to be adjusted. That I can accept new information regardless of the consequences.
After all I became a JW.
And then I was willing to leave the JW's despite heavy though unfair consequences.
I am willing to be proven wrong… or right… whatever the case may be.
Truth is worth the effort and or consequences for me. And the JWs do not have it.
That's what this journey called life is all about.
Living with blinders is no way to live at all!
If the bible is true Jesus did many amazing things to prove God was with him.
If the bible is true Moses did many amazing things that prove God was with him.
And this sorry list is what JW's have to prove God is with them today??
http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
All from their own literature.
The printed page tells it like it is JWs!
Like I've said many times now; the Watchtower's greatest enemy today is its own literature.
Vinny
Regarding Vinnie's statements:
5.1.1
Vinny says:
9/29/2011 at 3:55 am
… I simply disagreed with
the JW blood and blood fractions teaching. And for doing JUST THAT you get shunned and lose all JW relationships including your own family.
You are outright lying!
__________________________________________________
Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships including their family if they do so.
Interestingly, because of the effectiveness of alternative non-blood management and the fact that blood is dirty, carrying many diseases, the army is now learning from them how to treat patients without blood. A large body of physicians now believe that blood translations will soon be replaced by alternative, safer treatments. They are becoming the standard of care in many hospitals.
Meanwhile, blood transfusions continue to kill patients or give them serious health problems such as:
Transfusion Related Lung Injury (TRALI): In the hours following a transfusion, difficulty breathing, low blood pressure, fever are present, and a chest xray will show pulmonary infiltrates. The patient can have great difficulty getting enough oxygen in severe cases. This diagnosis is uncommon, but many believe it is under diagnosed and actually happens in one in every 300-5,000 transfusions, and is the third leading cause of transfusion caused death, depending upon the study.
Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD): A very rare brain disease that is the human equivalent of mad cow disease. The risk of contracting CJD is extremely low, but it is possible, if a donor was infected with the disease.
Malaria: Typically transmitted by mosquito, the risk of contracting malaria is low in countries where malaria is uncommon. The risk is far greater in areas of the world, such as Africa, where malaria is frequently diagnosed. Malaria causes fever, shaking chills, anemia, muscle pain and headaches.
Cytomegalovirus (CMV): A virus that is very common, present in up to 80% of the population. Flu-like symptoms may be present when someone catches CMV, or may not be noticed. People with compromised immune systems may receive blood that has been screened for CMV.
Babesiosis and Lyme Disease: Spread by tick bites, both conditions cause chronic fatigue. Babesiosis is similar to malaria, presenting with fever, shaking chills and anemia. Lyme is most common near wooded areas where people hike, Babesiosis is most common near Long Island in the United States.
Chagas: A disease spread by parasites, Chagas is most common in Mexico, Central America and South America. Left untreated, it can cause organ damage, but medication is available through the Centers For Disease Control.
Syphillis: A very common illness spread by sexual contact, syphillis causes sores on the genitals and sometimes around the mouth. Syphillis is easily treated but can cause significant health problems if left to progress without medication.
Epstein Barr (EBV): One of the herpes viruses, EBV is believed to be present in the bodies of up to 95% of the population. When EBV is contracted by an adolescent, they risk of developing mono, or kissing disease, is an estimated 30-50%.
Herpes: While many illnesses are caused by the herpes family of viruses, most people mean genital herpes when they use the term. This virus causes lesions on the genitals and cold sores on the mouth.
You don't need to learn this from Jehovah's Witnesses. The Internet is full of information on alternative non-blood management and about the risks of blood transfusions.
Patients heal faster with fewer complications without blood. The Bible command to "Abstain from blood" has proven to be a wise course
Quote: "Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships
including their family if they do so".
**** My Reply: BWAAAAAAHHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA
Everybody knows JWs are not allowed to take blood. If they knowingly take blood, and/or do not agree with the JW blood and fraction policy as it currently stands today, then they ARE SHUNNED FOR LIFE, unless they repent in front of the elders and accept all current JW teachings after a period of discipline and being shunned.
And that is a FACT.
Some non-bllood treatment is great. I'm all for it. Just like some of the new medical treatments for blocked arteries are better than some of the older techniques.
BUT THERE ARE STILL TIMES WHEN PEOPLE NEED BLOOD NOW!!!
AND THERE ARE COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE GLOBE THAT DO NOT HAVE NON-BLOOD TREATMENT CAPABILITIES!!!
In those cases, many times, the only alternative is DEATH.
And on top of all this sorry JW blood nonsense, you still have the JW religion with the absolute WORST track record anywhere in the past 100 years.
Life defending Watchtower land is sure one tough deal.
The Watchtower is not God's anything. FACT OF LIFE!
Prove God chose Watchtower Dee.
Cause I got a MOUNTAIN OF PROOF that God never chose Watchtower for anything: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
The printed page tells it like it is. MANY PAGES.
Sorry Dee but you just keep losing all the time.
Did God get all those EMBARRASSING DATES wrong JWs? (1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, GENERATION OF 1914 ETC)…
Did God get Vaccinations wrong too?
And then 21 years later did God change his mind about vaccinations?
(Or was it possibly because vaccinations were stomping out polio, smallpox, diptheria, measles and more)?
Did God get organ transplants being, "CANNIBALISM", wrong too?
And then change his mind again 13 years later saying organ transplants were not cannibalism after all! (how bout that!).
Did God get, "ALTERNATIVE SERVICE" wrong? (((FOR 50 YEARS))).
Did God change his mind 50 years later and then say alternative service is now okay to do?
Who did all those brothers go to jail for Dee? Was it for Jehovah or for the Watchtower Society?
What about good ole and special BETH-SARIM, JWs? Was Jehovah behind Beth Sarim too? An entire house and property waiting for the ancient worthies to be resurrected and have a place to go to.
Who was Beth Sarim an embarrassment to Dee? Please tell us.
Is it reasonable to expect just a little more from God's channel than all this Dee?
What do you think Dee
Who did all those witnesses that died because of not getting vaccinations or organ transplants die for? Did they die for God or for the Watchtower Society? You tell me Dee.
So please, tell me JWs, are you ready to let your little children DIE if for some reason they need blood? Please answer yes or no. Put yourself in that situation right now before it actually happens.
Are you ready to teach other people in your territory that they too must say no to blood even if death results?
JWs, Are you also ready and willing to shun your children if they get baptized at like 14 but then say, "sorry, but the JW's just ain't for me", at 18?
JWs, do you tell your bible studies that the JW's were FLAT WRONG about those organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service, Beth Sarim, 1914, 1925, 1975, 2000, Rape Rules, Sex with animals or sex with the same sex not breaking the marital bond along 500 more things just like these?
Do you tell your bible studies all about these many mistakes JWs?
You see, it would be disingenuous of you to only show the one side of the JW picture, don't you think?
People have a right and you have an obligation to show people the COMPLETE JW PICTURE.
Most bible studies only know what JW's tell them in their little bible study books. (I bet you all know this now). And NOWHERE does it mention all these problems that destroy the WT Society as being used by God for anything at all.
If the Bible is True:
Jesus walked on water.
Moses parted the Red Sea.
A Cloud followed the ark of the covenant.
And the JW religion owns this bad boy: http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
Do you see the slight difference here Dee?
This is why many people after knowing the entire JW range of facts end up walking away altogether. Just like I did almost five years ago now.
And this despite the fact that we will be judged as wicked, as some apostate, be labeled, shunned and lose almost everything we have.
Is this fair JWs? Is this scriptural JWs? No, it is neither… and I have examined all the scriptures many times and in great detail. No scripture supports this unfair abuse of power and loss of friends, family and reputation.
I hope you take the time to honestly examine all these things Dee.
Be ready to cut-off your own children just because they don't want it. Because you just might have to. It happens more than you know.
So JWs, the next time you try to push JW's are God's channel today nonsense please do not get offended when I fall out of my chair laughing.
You all have many questions all over this site that you have put on your lap.
And then you ALL always run like a fast little rabbits…
And do the JW dance moves out the door…
Silly JW's.
AND THIS IS WHY YOU KEEP GETTING SPANKED!!!
No JW that I have ever encountered or debated with can defend the sorry JW past plethora of embarrassing mistakes..
This is where you cross the line, lose badly and then get buried and spanked all on the same thread.
Why not just say this is a pretty good religion for me and leave it at that?
Why arrogantly teach that you must be a JW, JW's are the truth, God uses only JW's, JW's are God's people all the while you have pages and pages of PROOF that God never chose the JW's for anything, never got all those things wrong for 100 plus years and has not picked the Watchtower for anything at all.
This is your problem. And this is where you JWs are in denial. And what you run away from again and again.
The JW religion is just that another religious institution and nothing more. The facts prove this again and again over and over.
JW's preach (((THE JW))) message. And that is it.
You know the one that said (in writing) that the end would come in 1914, 1925, 1975, before the generation of 1914 died, the year 2000. The JW message that forbids blood transfusions, that forbidded organ transplants, vaccinations, alternative service etc etc etc…. The one that says no beards, no holidays, no school sports or plays, no cub scouts, no red cross, no salvation army etc etc etc
THAT is not the biblical message at all.
And remember this fact: Before JW's ever showed up on the scene, Christianity was already GLOBAL!!! Now how did that happen do you suppose?
God's hand is with my life today. Now how does that happen JWs if I left his organization as you al laughably claim??
It's simply a matter of putting the issues on the table and with an open mind coming to reasonable conclusions based on the whole range of facts and information.
I have proven to myself (and my family as well as God Himself) that I am willing to be WRONG.That I am willing to be adjusted. That I can accept new information regardless of the consequences.
After all I became a JW.
And then I was willing to leave the JW's despite heavy though unfair consequences.
I am willing to be proven wrong… or right… whatever the case may be.
Truth is worth the effort and or consequences for me. And the JWs do not have it.
That's what this journey called life is all about.
Living with blinders is no way to live at all!
If the bible is true Jesus did many amazing things to prove God was with him.
If the bible is true Moses did many amazing things that prove God was with him.
And this sorry list is what JW's have to prove God is with them today??
http://home.tiscali.nl/t661020/wtcitaten/part2.htm
All from their own literature.
The printed page tells it like it is JWs!
Like I've said many times now; the Watchtower's greatest enemy today is its own literature.
Vinny
my mother was NOT one of jehovah's witnesses, the Doctor told her she needed 1/2 pint of blood, she accepted it. she Died frm Trali! Transfusion related accute lung injury! she died because of a blood transfusion.
Many years earlier in my life My hemagloblin was down to 4 it took almost 2 more days to stop the bleeding! I am still living approx 35 years later !Back then there wasn't much information on expanders and such. I also had 3 bloodless c sections 38,36,34 years ago.As well as other surgeries with out blood.
Blood use is extremely dangerous! You may died soon after a transfusion like my mom did, or you may have to live for years, being sickly from the various diseases that you contact from a transfusion. My aunt was NOT a Jehovah witness, she got lukeimia from a blood ransfusion! Did you know that people with Diabetes are not suppose to give Blood to be used for transfusions! I didn't know that until my mom started having problems with her glucose jumping up and down then I did research about diabetics.How else would sh be having problems with diebetes? She was never a diabetic! IF your told you'll die if you don't take blood, do the research!
Have agood and safe life!
Everyone can see how dangerous blood transfusions are today! Jehovah's Witnesses are the reason that there are new types of help in the bloodless field! The Bible tells us to obstain from blood! we do and live healthier lives because of it!
For Vinny,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nItvTrZnxPU
Quote: "Vinnie, Witnesses who choose to take blood are very, very few but it is their choice. They are not shunned nor do they lose all J W relationships including their family if they do so."
The above is a lie.
Shame on you!