Johnson: I think that is another good reason why I’m still alive. An awful lot of guys who flew aerial combat with me ended up either as POWs or badly shot up doing that kind of business. Also, after my first victory I had a reputation as a sort of a wild man, and other pilots would say, Don’t fly with Johnson, he’ll get you killed. Later they decided to make me a flight leader and then a squadron leader. I felt that even though I was a leader, the other guys were as good as I was, and we decided that if they were in a good firing position, they should have the lead. In our one flight of eight boys we had the four leading aces in Europe. Then we got aggressive, and everyone became competitive. We were competing not only against the guys in our squadron but also against other squadrons. Later, it was our group against other groups, that kind of thing. We had Gabby Gabreski, myself, Jerry Johnson, Bud Mahurin and Joe Powers, who was one of our leaders at that time. He was killed in Korea when his engine was hit as he was trying to make it back across Inchon Bay on January 18, 1951. He went down with his plane.

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MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. Günther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can’t imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?

Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the Fw-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness that allowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed–so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943 (see sidebar, P. 28), I had 21 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I’ll tell you that. I was always scared–that was what made me move quick. Hub Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane–that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down.

MH: What was it like for you when you came home from the war?

Johnson: When I came home, Dick Bong from the Pacific theater had just shot down his 27th plane about two weeks before I got mine, and was already home when I returned. He was a quiet guy and did not like all of the publicity. He just did not like the questioning by the press. When I walked in, he said: God, am I glad to see you! Take a little of the pressure off of me! We were both given regular commissions and were assigned new airplanes. I flew across the country giving talks at universities, businesses, political gatherings, what have you. We were primarily trying to boost support for the boys still fighting the war over there, selling war bonds and the like. We were both sent to gunnery school shortly after this, and Bong did well with his computing gunsight, and I found I could do pretty well, too. I felt that as far as staying in the service, I could do more for the pilots in the aircraft industry, rather than being stuck on some base in Okinawa as an Air Force officer. When I left to go to work for Republic, I stayed in the reserve. The first thing I did was work on the standardized cockpit for pilots, rather than for engineers. That helped the pilots see the weather outside and the gauges inside–all of the instruments with just a slight drop of the head or a raising of the eyes. I spent 18 years with Republic Aviation; then Republic was bought out by Fairchild. I was just about to go with Northrop when someone talked me into the insurance and securities business. I am very happy they did, from a financial standpoint. I have basically retired from that, but I am still available to some of my old clients. I travel quite a lot and I enjoy it, but sometimes the pressure gets to be too much. I will give you an idea of what I’m talking about. I was at Oshkosh, Wisconsin, for the air show last week, then I went to McDill Air Force Base for the last flight and the breakup of the 56th Fighter Group. Two of the squadrons are out at Luke Air Force Base in Arizona now, and they may be coming back. I hope they do. I came home for a couple of days, then I was off to Knoxville, Tennessee, for a P-47 fighter pilots’ reunion. That’s the way it’s been going.

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