Comments on: Sand Creek Massacre: The Real Villains http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:24:31 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: How to make history out of fiction « Intriguing Faces and Places from Colorado's Past http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-785956 How to make history out of fiction « Intriguing Faces and Places from Colorado's Past Wed, 04 Jan 2012 23:11:23 +0000 #comment-785956 [...] in his article “Sand Creek Massacre: The Real Villains,” Published Online: June 12, 2006. (http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm). In this article, Michno again uses the Cutler quotes as real quotes from real Silas Soule [...] [...] in his article “Sand Creek Massacre: The Real Villains,” Published Online: June 12, 2006. (http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm). In this article, Michno again uses the Cutler quotes as real quotes from real Silas Soule [...]

]]> By: Daniel Rosenthal http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-785263 Daniel Rosenthal Mon, 26 Dec 2011 18:54:18 +0000 #comment-785263 Lieutenant James Olney of the First Colorado Cavalry said in a sworn deposition that three women and five children who had surrendered and been taken prisoner were shot down and killed by Lieutenant Harry Richmond as they begged for mercy. Even Major Anthony reproted that he saw a two year old child used for target practice and killed by three of Chivington's men. So much for the claim that the killing of women and children at Sand Creek was accidental and the result of the confusion of battle, or that women were shot only in self defense because they were shooting at the soldiers. I think the most reliable estimate of the number killed at Sand Creek was 163--53 men and 110 women and children. Only 7 were taken prisoner, and those against orders. In the second attack on (what was left of) Black Kettle's band, a recent estimate puts the number killed at 58--40 men, 12 women, and 6 children with 53 (all women and children) taken prisoner. Custer's (and Sheridan's) orders were to kill only men but take women and children prisoner to be used as "bargaining chips" in l;ater negotiations with the natives. Custer had been following a Kiowa war party and apparently mistook Black Kettle's village for the home village of the Kiowas. Lieutenant James Olney of the First Colorado Cavalry said in a
sworn deposition that three women and five children who had
surrendered and been taken prisoner were shot down and killed
by Lieutenant Harry Richmond as they begged for mercy. Even
Major Anthony reproted that he saw a two year old child used for
target practice and killed by three of Chivington's men. So much
for the claim that the killing of women and children at Sand Creek
was accidental and the result of the confusion of battle, or that
women were shot only in self defense because they were shooting
at the soldiers. I think the most reliable estimate of the number
killed at Sand Creek was 163–53 men and 110 women and children.
Only 7 were taken prisoner, and those against orders.

In the second attack on (what was left of) Black Kettle's band,
a recent estimate puts the number killed at 58–40 men, 12 women,
and 6 children with 53 (all women and children) taken prisoner.
Custer's (and Sheridan's) orders were to kill only men but take
women and children prisoner to be used as "bargaining chips" in
l;ater negotiations with the natives. Custer had been following a
Kiowa war party and apparently mistook Black Kettle's village
for the home village of the Kiowas.

]]> By: nolon wood http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-785216 nolon wood Sun, 25 Dec 2011 06:08:43 +0000 #comment-785216 yes yes

]]> By: nolon wood http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-785215 nolon wood Sun, 25 Dec 2011 06:05:58 +0000 #comment-785215 What does sittin bull,the N.P.A and some childhood chief that played baseball have to do with sand creek? The native American people were lied to and took advantage of my people were forced ona reservation nowhere near their their homelands it's basically a consentration camp with no razer wire.killing children is butal and my people are just as guilty. i like reading everbodies comment. What does sittin bull,the N.P.A and some childhood chief that played baseball have to do with sand creek? The native American people were lied to and took advantage of my people were forced ona reservation nowhere near their their homelands it's basically a consentration camp with no razer wire.killing children is butal and my people are just as guilty. i like reading everbodies comment.

]]> By: Daniel Rosenthal http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-784033 Daniel Rosenthal Fri, 09 Dec 2011 10:19:54 +0000 #comment-784033 There are sworn statements by in\idnividuals present at Sand Creek that women and children were shot down as they tried to surrender, or in some cases, after they had surrendered and were in captivity. See the statements made by Lt. James Olney, 1st Colorado Cavelry. The army policy was to attack Indian villages,; women and children were often killed in the confusion, but therte is much evidence that at Sand Creek they were shot down deliberately, in some cases, after they had already surrendered. Usually, the Army took scores of prisoners in such attacks (Ash Hollow,Whitestone Hill, Washita, McClellan Creek). Chivington bragged that he took no prisoners of any age or sex (not true, the First Colorado troops, most of whom opposed the massacre, took 2 women and 5 children prisoner and protected them), and once said his policy in dealing with Indians was to "kill them all, little and big, because nits make lice". Even if the Cheyennes were hostile, there is no excuse for the murder of women and children captives, nor for the sexual mutilation of females. There are sworn statements by in\idnividuals present at Sand Creek
that women and children were shot down as they tried to surrender, or in some cases, after they had surrendered and were in captivity.
See the statements made by Lt. James Olney, 1st Colorado Cavelry.

The army policy was to attack Indian villages,;
women and children were often killed in
the confusion, but therte is much evidence that
at Sand Creek they were shot down deliberately,
in some cases, after they had already surrendered. Usually,
the Army took scores of prisoners in such attacks (Ash Hollow,Whitestone Hill, Washita, McClellan Creek). Chivington
bragged that he took no prisoners of any age or sex (not true,
the First Colorado troops, most of whom opposed the massacre,
took 2 women and 5 children prisoner and protected them), and
once said his policy in dealing with Indians was to "kill them all,
little and big, because nits make lice". Even if the Cheyennes were
hostile, there is no excuse for the murder of women and children captives, nor for the sexual mutilation of females.

]]> By: gabie jacks http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-756630 gabie jacks Thu, 15 Sep 2011 19:39:12 +0000 #comment-756630 americans were so un fair now and then the native americans got kicked off there land too many times and every time the whites said they would not be bother well that didnt last long for any of the times they always got booted some eles for either gold good hunting land becaues whites and indians wern't getting along for some many resons that only benifted the whites? talk about unfair right now a days every thing is about money we need a whole new govenment system to change the way things are now i get ou cant change the past but you always have the time and oppertunity to change the e would future and the way were going now nothngs going to change not now not ever. that riht there is a little pice of my mind. but i dont think anybody could express the way they would feel after they got done reading or hearing about this tragic date in americas history. americans were so un fair now and then the native americans got kicked off there land too many times and every time the whites said they would not be bother well that didnt last long for any of the times they always got booted some eles for either gold good hunting land becaues whites and indians wern't getting along for some many resons that only benifted the whites? talk about unfair right now a days every thing is about money we need a whole new govenment system to change the way things are now i get ou cant change the past but you always have the time and oppertunity to change the e would future and the way were going now nothngs going to change not now not ever. that riht there is a little pice of my mind. but i dont think anybody could express the way they would feel after they got done reading or hearing about this tragic date in americas history.

]]> By: Donald L. Vasicek http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-727501 Donald L. Vasicek Thu, 01 Sep 2011 19:45:01 +0000 #comment-727501 To be a journalist and/or a writer, one must be objective. This means that both sides of a story need to be thoroughly researched. You failed miserably in doing that, and thus, your claim, loses credibility. For openers, Southern Cheyenne Chief Laird (Whistling Eagle) Cometsevah told me that his great-great grandfather told his father that there were over 400 Cheyenne people murdered at Sand Creek on November 29, 1864. This did not include any Arapahoe people since, according to Chief Cometsevah, the Arapahoe, that even though they followed the Cheyenne, they always camped 8 miles away from them. To be a journalist and/or a writer, one must be objective. This means that both sides of a story need to be thoroughly researched. You failed miserably in doing that, and thus, your claim, loses credibility. For openers, Southern Cheyenne Chief Laird (Whistling Eagle) Cometsevah told me that his great-great grandfather told his father that there were over 400 Cheyenne people murdered at Sand Creek on November 29, 1864. This did not include any Arapahoe people since, according to Chief Cometsevah, the Arapahoe, that even though they followed the Cheyenne, they always camped 8 miles away from them.

]]> By: Curt Neeley http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-635671 Curt Neeley Sun, 10 Jul 2011 02:26:07 +0000 #comment-635671 I'll leave the topic for a time by quoting the most scathing denunciation of the historical character Col. John M. Chivington. I found it on page 405 of Ronald Becher's MASSACRE ALONG THE MEDICINE ROAD; Perhaps, with diligent effort, modern psychology might construct an explanation for John Milton Chivington. Undeniably he was an individual possessing geat native talent and a coarse charisma, yet his quest for respectability ws continually subverted by his personal crudeness and pathology of character. In the chaotic milieu of the Civil War Frontier, the man of God who labored for the advancement of his church and faith became the sadistic militarist who longed "to be wading in gore". The man would well have become a dynamic builder of the Rocky Mountain Region became instead the awful antihero of Sand Creek, living out the balance of his life in a morally shabby and pointless existence" The quote about "wading in gore" still seems arguable to me. And who's to say who's exisence is "pointless" in the big scheme of things?. For myself, I like the Edwin Markham poem in the lobby of the 1st Methodist Church in Eads, Colorado. It's the town nearest the Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site. I've attended several funerals in that church and each time paused to read Markham's words. ; "He drew a circle that shust me out- Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout. But love and I had the wit to win; We drew a circle and took him in." Perhaps the best of the two basic versions of the Sand Creek conflict will now play out at the Kiowa County Site. The indian version will prevail there, maintained by government funds and the National Park Service. Some 39 miles almost due south at Big Timbers Museum in Lamar, the Bowen Battle Site Artifact is now on display as a memorial to the Bowen parents who built the 20 square mile "Golden Rule" ranch. Hopefully a more scholarly pursuit will reveal greater truths about the conflict. I do believe I saw a copy of Greg Michno's BATTLE AT SAND CREEK, The Military Perspective" a few years ago. Now the museum is greatly expanded to include it's transportation collection. Some 600 people attend the grand opening on June 25, 2011. Thanks to Ronald Becher for concluding his book by quoting both Chief Seattle and Holy Writ on page 450; "Tribe follows tribe, and nation follows nation, like the waves of the sea. It is the order of nature, and regret is useless." Regards, Curt Neeley I'll leave the topic for a time by quoting the most scathing denunciation of the historical character Col. John M. Chivington. I found it on page 405 of Ronald Becher's MASSACRE ALONG THE MEDICINE ROAD;

Perhaps, with diligent effort, modern psychology might construct an explanation for John Milton Chivington. Undeniably he was an individual possessing geat native talent and a coarse charisma, yet his quest for respectability ws continually subverted by his personal crudeness and pathology of character. In the chaotic milieu of the Civil War Frontier, the man of God who labored for the advancement of his church and faith became the sadistic militarist who longed "to be wading in gore". The man would well have become a dynamic builder of the Rocky Mountain Region became instead the awful antihero of Sand Creek, living out the balance of his life in a morally shabby and pointless existence"

The quote about "wading in gore" still seems arguable to me. And who's to say who's exisence is "pointless" in the big scheme of things?.

For myself, I like the Edwin Markham poem in the lobby of the 1st Methodist Church in Eads, Colorado. It's the town nearest the Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site. I've attended several funerals in that church and each time paused to read Markham's words.

; "He drew a circle that shust me out-
Heretic, rebel, a thing to flout.
But love and I had the wit to win;
We drew a circle and took him in."

Perhaps the best of the two basic versions of the Sand Creek conflict will now play out at the Kiowa County Site. The indian version will prevail there, maintained by government funds and the National Park Service.

Some 39 miles almost due south at Big Timbers Museum in Lamar, the Bowen Battle Site Artifact is now on display as a memorial to the Bowen parents who built the 20 square mile "Golden Rule" ranch.
Hopefully a more scholarly pursuit will reveal greater truths about the conflict. I do believe I saw a copy of Greg Michno's BATTLE AT SAND CREEK, The Military Perspective" a few years ago. Now the museum is greatly expanded to include it's transportation collection. Some 600 people attend the grand opening on June 25, 2011.

Thanks to Ronald Becher for concluding his book by quoting both Chief Seattle and Holy Writ on page 450;

"Tribe follows tribe, and nation follows nation, like the waves of the sea. It is the order of nature, and regret is useless."

Regards, Curt Neeley

]]> By: Island Park Idaho http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-634702 Island Park Idaho Sat, 09 Jul 2011 12:20:48 +0000 #comment-634702 Unquestionably imagine that which you stated. Your favorite justification appeared to be at the internet the easiest factor to be aware of. I say to you, I definitely get irked while folks think about issues that they just don't recognise about. You managed to hit the nail upon the highest and also defined out the whole thing with no need side effect , other folks can take a signal. Will probably be back to get more. Thanks Unquestionably imagine that which you stated. Your favorite justification appeared to be at the internet the easiest factor to be aware of. I say to you, I definitely get irked while folks think about issues that they just don't recognise about. You managed to hit the nail upon the highest and also defined out the whole thing with no need side effect , other folks can take a signal. Will probably be back to get more. Thanks

]]> By: Curt Neeley http://www.historynet.com/sand-creek-massacre-the-real-villains.htm#comment-630940 Curt Neeley Wed, 06 Jul 2011 03:51:03 +0000 #comment-630940 I'll go some more on the Methodists and Sand Creek, Dana. As for Treaties, U. S. President U.S. Grant ordered the end to all treaties with "Domestic Dependent Nations" when he took office. He probably did so with advice from his top aide from the Seige of Vicksberg Col. Ely S Parker, the lawyer, engineer, soldier and full-blood Seneca Chief, and Grand Sachem of the Iriquois Confederacy. Parker had also penned the surrender document as Grant dictated it at Appomatox. Grant then declared his "Peace": policy with the indians. Many tribes didn't believe him. But Grant well knew about Total War, as did Sherman and Sheridan and Custer. The tribes lost the many indian wars. As for Methodists, the Elders of the Rocky Mountain Conference apparently are unable to deal with new data regarding Sand Creek. They appear fixated on an erroneous history. Such a stunted group-think is typical among large organizations suffering stultifiation and dysfunction. I referred to such limitations as "Caiaphas, Inc" during my research in the mid 1980's in Arkansas at Capitol View Methodist Church. I admonish the Rocky Mountain Conference Elders "Be ye not conformed unto this (politically correct) world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds". Otherwise their $50,000 grant to the Sand Creek National Historial Monument might be considered a breach of the Constitutional barrier between church and state. You admonished me that "The Truth Will Set You Free". You might try that out on yourself. I believe your only interest in all this exchange was to guild the tarnished reputation of your "judgemental and humorless" ancestor Samuel Forster Tappan. In this effort from your high perch as Chief Renewable Energy Advisor of the International Finance Corporation, I think you have failed. You have yet to disprove any of Greg Michno's references. Instead you merely indulged slander and degradation. Regards, Curt Neeley I'll go some more on the Methodists and Sand Creek, Dana. As for Treaties, U. S. President U.S. Grant ordered the end to all treaties with "Domestic Dependent Nations" when he took office. He probably did so with advice from his top aide from the Seige of Vicksberg Col. Ely S Parker, the lawyer, engineer, soldier and full-blood Seneca Chief, and Grand Sachem of the Iriquois Confederacy. Parker had also penned the surrender document as Grant dictated it at Appomatox. Grant then declared his "Peace": policy with the indians. Many tribes didn't believe him. But Grant well knew about Total War, as did Sherman and Sheridan and Custer.
The tribes lost the many indian wars.

As for Methodists, the Elders of the Rocky Mountain Conference apparently are unable to deal with new data regarding Sand Creek.
They appear fixated on an erroneous history. Such a stunted group-think is typical among large organizations suffering stultifiation and dysfunction. I referred to such limitations as "Caiaphas, Inc" during my research in the mid 1980's in Arkansas at Capitol View Methodist Church.

I admonish the Rocky Mountain Conference Elders "Be ye not conformed unto this (politically correct) world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds". Otherwise their $50,000 grant to the Sand Creek National Historial Monument might be considered a breach of the Constitutional barrier between church and state.

You admonished me that "The Truth Will Set You Free". You might try that out on yourself. I believe your only interest in all this exchange was to guild the tarnished reputation of your "judgemental and humorless" ancestor Samuel Forster Tappan. In this effort from your high perch as Chief Renewable Energy Advisor of the International Finance Corporation, I think you have failed. You have yet to disprove any of Greg Michno's references. Instead you merely indulged slander and degradation.

Regards, Curt Neeley

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