Comments on: Operation Bagration: Soviet Offensive of 1944 http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:48:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Que Chimba http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-1146168 Que Chimba Tue, 28 May 2013 03:17:25 +0000 #comment-1146168 You have been watching too many John Wayne and Oliver Stone movies buddy.. The yanks have always been \Johnny come Lately\ get in the fight in the 9th Round when the other guys have already reduced your opponent to a punch-drunk stumbling wimp, who can hardly raise his hands to defend himself..World War one, World War Two... heck you even got yore ass kicked by teany-tiny Vietnam... Read Anthony Beevor, if you want to learn military history, and forget about \saving Captain Ryan's ass\ and other Hollywood propoganda... You have been watching too many John Wayne and Oliver Stone movies buddy.. The yanks have always been \Johnny come Lately\ get in the fight in the 9th Round when the other guys have already reduced your opponent to a punch-drunk stumbling wimp, who can hardly raise his hands to defend himself..World War one, World War Two… heck you even got yore ass kicked by teany-tiny Vietnam…

Read Anthony Beevor, if you want to learn military history, and forget about \saving Captain Ryan's ass\ and other Hollywood propoganda…

]]> By: Eric http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-1071581 Eric Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:30:46 +0000 #comment-1071581 Came across this comment while doing some research on the subject. I believe this to be true. My grand-father was in the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front and told me this story. His unit (no description of how large it was) was retreating through the swamps and only 5 men came out alive. Many were shot by partisans, many died overnight by drowning. Exhausted soldiers would just lie on the ground and their body heat would melt the ice underneath causing them to drown. He said that when they came out on the other side, an officer who was waiting for them lost his mind when he realised how large the losses were. He died about 10 years ago, so I can't quizz him more about it. It's an interesting subject, I'll keep looking to see if more information is available. Came across this comment while doing some research on the subject.

I believe this to be true. My grand-father was in the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front and told me this story. His unit (no description of how large it was) was retreating through the swamps and only 5 men came out alive.
Many were shot by partisans, many died overnight by drowning. Exhausted soldiers would just lie on the ground and their body heat would melt the ice underneath causing them to drown.
He said that when they came out on the other side, an officer who was waiting for them lost his mind when he realised how large the losses were.

He died about 10 years ago, so I can't quizz him more about it. It's an interesting subject, I'll keep looking to see if more information is available.

]]> By: TOES http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-892517 TOES Mon, 18 Feb 2013 22:22:23 +0000 #comment-892517 Juan Pujells i agree. russians do ALL the work but get no credit Juan Pujells i agree. russians do ALL the work but get no credit

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-831826 JamesW. Wed, 16 Jan 2013 00:02:39 +0000 #comment-831826 The eastern front was, apart from the primitive conditions & extremes of ideological hate crimes perpetrated by both sides, less severe than the materially/firepower overwhelming western front, the Nazi awards system recognised this in making points allocations for Iron Cross,Knights Cross,etc. & as an example, were in the east, still effectively using Stukas in daylight anti-tank strafing, something impracticable against the RAF& USAAF interceptor opposition in the west. The Luftwaffe made a major tactical attack [Bodenplatte] in support of the 'Bulge' on 1 Jan`45, but despite both sides suffering embarassingly severe damage, the massive allied airforces soon replaced their losses, - something the Nazis couldn`t match. The western allies shot their fair share of captured Nazi combatants [fairly - according to their own rules of war,since Waffen SS, even Hitler Youth - were deemed 'outlaws', fit to be shot summarily] & likewise post-war put 'surrendered enemy personel ' into defacto concentration camps to starve & die of disease, very similar to the Nazi treatment of Soviet P.O.W.s. The Geneva convention was bypassed since the Nazis could no longer reciprocate with their western P.O.W.s -as they`d been liberated.The western allies also callously turned over many of their war captives & surviving Russian & eatern european captives/slaves of the Nazis to Stalin,even in the sure knowledge they`d likely be 'liquidated',- or sent to the gulag, as a minimum. As for the 2/3s of Nazi forces kept fighting in the east, those were missing the mechanised , mobile Panzer units sent to the west, if those SS & Army were present for Bragration, it would not have been such a roll-over- but there were just not enough to go around. In purely military terms,however, it is incredible [& not to the allies credit] that the Nazis were still capable of an organised fighting resistance for nearly another year after D-day/Bagration.. The eastern front was, apart from the primitive conditions & extremes of ideological hate crimes perpetrated by both sides, less severe than the materially/firepower overwhelming western front, the Nazi awards system recognised this in making points allocations for Iron Cross,Knights Cross,etc. & as an example, were in the east, still effectively using Stukas in daylight anti-tank strafing, something impracticable against the RAF& USAAF interceptor opposition in the west.
The Luftwaffe made a major tactical attack [Bodenplatte] in support of the 'Bulge' on 1 Jan`45, but despite both sides suffering embarassingly severe damage, the massive allied airforces soon replaced their losses, – something the Nazis couldn`t match.
The western allies shot their fair share of captured Nazi combatants [fairly - according to their own rules of war,since Waffen SS, even Hitler Youth - were deemed 'outlaws', fit to be shot summarily] & likewise post-war put 'surrendered enemy personel ' into defacto concentration camps to starve & die of disease, very similar to the Nazi treatment of Soviet P.O.W.s.
The Geneva convention was bypassed since the Nazis could no longer reciprocate with their western P.O.W.s -as they`d been liberated.The western allies also callously turned over many of their war captives & surviving Russian & eatern european captives/slaves of the Nazis to Stalin,even in the sure knowledge they`d likely be 'liquidated',- or sent to the gulag, as a minimum.
As for the 2/3s of Nazi forces kept fighting in the east, those were missing the mechanised , mobile Panzer units sent to the west, if those SS & Army were present for Bragration, it would not have been such a roll-over- but there were just not enough to go around.
In purely military terms,however, it is incredible [& not to the allies credit] that the Nazis were still capable of an organised fighting resistance for nearly another year after D-day/Bagration..

]]> By: bingre http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-831719 bingre Mon, 14 Jan 2013 23:07:12 +0000 #comment-831719 The Battle of the Bulge was a suicidal gamble from Hitler. With no air support only a miracle could save the operation ( and little artillery, and little fuel), and they even planned to catch enemy fuel deposits to continue the whole thing! The eastern front always was the bitter front for both sides, the Germans always had 2/3 of their divisions there. The probability of surviving after surrending was very low for both sides in the eastern front, the war conventions means notning there. Instead the western German pow's got a nice chance of coming home after the war.So when Germany surrender masses of people and soldiers ran to the western powers. The Battle of the Bulge was a suicidal gamble from Hitler. With no air support only a miracle could save the operation ( and little artillery, and little fuel), and they even planned to catch enemy fuel deposits to continue the whole thing!
The eastern front always was the bitter front for both sides, the Germans always had 2/3 of their divisions there. The probability of surviving after surrending was very low for both sides in the eastern front, the war conventions means notning there. Instead the western German pow's got a nice chance of coming home after the war.So when Germany surrender masses of people and soldiers ran to the western powers.

]]> By: outsider http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-831424 outsider Sat, 12 Jan 2013 04:48:42 +0000 #comment-831424 you make some good points about air support. In the earliest years of Operation Barbarossa, the Germans demonstrated their superiority in close air support of ground operations. (I suspect) they first mounted anti-tank guns on aircraft. A gunner on board a swooping aircraft could aim at the relatively thin armoured upper and rear parts of tanks. Of course, the Wehrmacht eventually lost their edge in exploiting the airborne anti-tank weaponry. Moreover, even before the Soviets learned the trick, the air weapon was more effective during summer than winter. When the weather turned bad, the invaders lost a significant advantage and incurred their biggest reverses. Anyway, the Soviets learned the value of close air support from their adversaries. you make some good points about air support. In the earliest years of Operation Barbarossa, the Germans demonstrated their superiority in close air support of ground operations. (I suspect) they first mounted anti-tank guns on aircraft. A gunner on board a swooping aircraft could aim at the relatively thin armoured upper and rear parts of tanks. Of course, the Wehrmacht eventually lost their edge in exploiting the airborne anti-tank weaponry. Moreover, even before the Soviets learned the trick, the air weapon was more effective during summer than winter. When the weather turned bad, the invaders lost a significant advantage and incurred their biggest reverses. Anyway, the Soviets learned the value of close air support from their adversaries.

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-831331 JamesW. Fri, 11 Jan 2013 07:10:16 +0000 #comment-831331 The fact that Hitler had spent his own soldierly combat career on the western front effectively meant that both in Normandy & in the `44 Christmas offensives he was sucked in by his ego/will issues into recklessly spending the SS panzer & Luftwaffe 'fire brigades' which had previously capably checked the Soviet offensive forces & generally stabilised the eastern front. Clearly,he absence of these crucial ultramodern forces of the Nazi war machine allowed Bagration to succeed - the Germans themselves rated the eastern front fighting as less severe/dangerous - excepting for the nasty ideological hatred type stuff..Notwithstanding that, it is to their shame that the total allied applied military effort was,[ given their crushing industrial/logistical superiority], so profligately wasteful in lives/resources & 1/2 arsed politically too. The fact that Hitler had spent his own soldierly combat career on the western front effectively meant that both in Normandy & in the `44 Christmas offensives he was sucked in by his ego/will issues into recklessly spending the SS panzer & Luftwaffe 'fire brigades' which had previously capably checked the Soviet offensive forces & generally stabilised the eastern front.
Clearly,he absence of these crucial ultramodern forces of the Nazi war machine allowed Bagration to succeed – the Germans themselves rated the eastern front fighting as less severe/dangerous – excepting for the nasty ideological hatred type stuff..Notwithstanding that, it is to their shame that the total allied applied military effort was,[ given their crushing industrial/logistical superiority], so profligately wasteful in lives/resources & 1/2 arsed politically too.

]]> By: Jason http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-831282 Jason Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:26:53 +0000 #comment-831282 Your numbers are such BS man. Your numbers are such BS man.

]]> By: A.N. http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-821831 A.N. Sun, 21 Oct 2012 01:33:10 +0000 #comment-821831 The losses for the Germans were 440,000 men while the Soviets permanently lost only 178,000 men. That's nearly a 3:1 kill ratio in the Red Armies favor. The losses for the Germans were 440,000 men while the Soviets permanently lost only 178,000 men. That's nearly a 3:1 kill ratio in the Red Armies favor.

]]> By: A.N. http://www.historynet.com/operation-bagration-soviet-offensive-of-1944.htm#comment-821830 A.N. Sun, 21 Oct 2012 01:27:44 +0000 #comment-821830 Well, the German generals always blame Hitler...the German generals never confess own mistakes, its easy to blame someone who is dead.For instance during the russian winter offensive 1941-42 the generals wanted to redraw, it was only Hitlers orders to stay where they where that stoped the redraw. Otherwize it would have been panic and the german army had not stoped redrawing until they had reached the german border Well, the German generals always blame Hitler…the German generals never confess own mistakes, its easy to blame someone who is dead.For instance during the russian winter offensive 1941-42 the generals wanted to redraw, it was only Hitlers orders to stay where they where that stoped the redraw. Otherwize it would have been panic and the german army had not stoped redrawing until they had reached the german border

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