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	<title>Comments on: Narrative? Real Life?</title>
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		<title>By: Gene Gutowski</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-779432</link>
		<dc:creator>Gene Gutowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:50:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-779432</guid>
		<description>WWII happened, and I was a part of it. Born to a ancestrally Jewish family in Poland, I was hunted. My family was murdered.

As a resourceful adolescent in occupied Poland, I produced Aryan identities and sold them on the black market. While I survived, my mother and grandparents were killed at Belzec. 

I eventually left the dangers of Lwow, leaving my younger brother in the care of my father and uncle. I was captured and taken to a concentration camp. I insisted I had valid work papers proving an ethnic German heritage. Speaking fluent German, Russian, Polish and English, I became a personal translator for an SS officer and was later released. I traveled to Warsaw only to learn that my father was killed, and my uncle and brother, who was only 13, took poison.

I was alone in the world at age 16. 

In May 1945, after evading the SS, I eventually found myself also outrunning the Russians. I collapsed at the feet of an American soldier, and I was quickly put to work with the Americans in the Counter Intelligence Corp. 

I ended up in NYC where I started my career as a successful film producer. But I will never forget my adolescence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WWII happened, and I was a part of it. Born to a ancestrally Jewish family in Poland, I was hunted. My family was murdered.</p>
<p>As a resourceful adolescent in occupied Poland, I produced Aryan identities and sold them on the black market. While I survived, my mother and grandparents were killed at Belzec. </p>
<p>I eventually left the dangers of Lwow, leaving my younger brother in the care of my father and uncle. I was captured and taken to a concentration camp. I insisted I had valid work papers proving an ethnic German heritage. Speaking fluent German, Russian, Polish and English, I became a personal translator for an SS officer and was later released. I traveled to Warsaw only to learn that my father was killed, and my uncle and brother, who was only 13, took poison.</p>
<p>I was alone in the world at age 16. </p>
<p>In May 1945, after evading the SS, I eventually found myself also outrunning the Russians. I collapsed at the feet of an American soldier, and I was quickly put to work with the Americans in the Counter Intelligence Corp. </p>
<p>I ended up in NYC where I started my career as a successful film producer. But I will never forget my adolescence.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek Weese</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778996</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek Weese</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 17:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778996</guid>
		<description>Excellent post Dr. C. I am in college to actually earn a degree in history, specializing in something I&#039;ve been reading about since I was seven: military history. 
I do firmly believe in reality, and coming from a military family and having lost relatives in Normandy and the Pacific I can say that it was a REAL event and cultural &#039;historians&#039; generally do nothing but offend those in the military or those related to them with their...well...nonsense. Thanks for the post, in my opinion this one was your best one yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post Dr. C. I am in college to actually earn a degree in history, specializing in something I&#039;ve been reading about since I was seven: military history.<br />
I do firmly believe in reality, and coming from a military family and having lost relatives in Normandy and the Pacific I can say that it was a REAL event and cultural &#039;historians&#039; generally do nothing but offend those in the military or those related to them with their&#8230;well&#8230;nonsense. Thanks for the post, in my opinion this one was your best one yet.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Cohen</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778755</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 00:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778755</guid>
		<description>Going to hold off on final judgment of this piece until the conclusion, but I find myself in the Sean Oliver camp at present.  Moral relativism may be the problem with post-modern attempts to revisit (or distort) the Second World War, but is there really a general existentialist denial of its events fundamentally having occurred (setting aside the risible wingnut faction)?  

And are the moral relativists so far afield from the way you teach your students (or at least taught this one) to critically assess well-held beliefs?

My sense is that you&#039;re attacking the mythical historian Tzum Tse.  He&#039;s usually quoted as &quot;Some say . . .&quot;  Maybe I&#039;m just insufficiently familiar with the counter narrative you&#039;re decrying.  Like I said, waiting for the rest of the story before I judge the premise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going to hold off on final judgment of this piece until the conclusion, but I find myself in the Sean Oliver camp at present.  Moral relativism may be the problem with post-modern attempts to revisit (or distort) the Second World War, but is there really a general existentialist denial of its events fundamentally having occurred (setting aside the risible wingnut faction)?  </p>
<p>And are the moral relativists so far afield from the way you teach your students (or at least taught this one) to critically assess well-held beliefs?</p>
<p>My sense is that you&#039;re attacking the mythical historian Tzum Tse.  He&#039;s usually quoted as &#034;Some say . . .&#034;  Maybe I&#039;m just insufficiently familiar with the counter narrative you&#039;re decrying.  Like I said, waiting for the rest of the story before I judge the premise.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Nance</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778588</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 11:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778588</guid>
		<description>Jimmy, the truth is never relative.  Something happened.  You can approach it from a number of different perspectives, but you can never ignore the actual fact.  

The problem Rob is addressing has less to do with a concern about people introducing new information, or even concern about coming up with new interpretations.  His major problem, and mine, is when people &quot;reinterpret&quot; facts to the point that the actual historical truth is unrecognizable.

The problem you see with much &quot;revisionist&quot; history is that in an attempt to &quot;correct&quot; perceived issues in the historical narrative, it often goes too far, as you very correctly stated.  This is a very significant problem, as historians must always start with the truth, the fact, aka, what happened, and work from there.  If the facts are unknown, then we research them.  When new information becomes available, we assess and analyze it and thereby gain new insight to the question.  However, we cannot change the facts (or leave some out), to fit our own personal perspectives. 

And that is where I agree with your ending, wherein historians should always strive for a truthful, full, and accurate telling of events.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jimmy, the truth is never relative.  Something happened.  You can approach it from a number of different perspectives, but you can never ignore the actual fact.  </p>
<p>The problem Rob is addressing has less to do with a concern about people introducing new information, or even concern about coming up with new interpretations.  His major problem, and mine, is when people &#034;reinterpret&#034; facts to the point that the actual historical truth is unrecognizable.</p>
<p>The problem you see with much &#034;revisionist&#034; history is that in an attempt to &#034;correct&#034; perceived issues in the historical narrative, it often goes too far, as you very correctly stated.  This is a very significant problem, as historians must always start with the truth, the fact, aka, what happened, and work from there.  If the facts are unknown, then we research them.  When new information becomes available, we assess and analyze it and thereby gain new insight to the question.  However, we cannot change the facts (or leave some out), to fit our own personal perspectives. </p>
<p>And that is where I agree with your ending, wherein historians should always strive for a truthful, full, and accurate telling of events.</p>
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		<title>By: JimmyP</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778571</link>
		<dc:creator>JimmyP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2011 19:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778571</guid>
		<description>Honestly , I don&#039;t get the point. I have always said history is an extremely important subject, and not to study it imperils a society, especially a democratic one. But post modernism impinging on Historical Reality? Is this a serious problem. For years we  in the USA saw our history through rose colored glasses. This and the myths regarding the &quot;Lost Cause&quot; of the Confederacy and the Gone With the Wind memes of the  pre-Civil war South  , conspired to lead to a general decline in belief in the study of history or an extreme revisionism. We went from Heroic Cavalry vs.  Brutal-Indians , to Rapist Murderers vs. peaceful-Indians etc. Neither set-up being real. Military History is always important, as is cultural-social history. The best historians can synthesize the two.  I remember the enlightened  feeling I had when I read Lehman&#039;s &quot;The Promised Land&quot; and realized that the mechanized cotton picker had as much to do with the history of this country in the 50&#039;s as did the end of World War II.  Those who love and respect history must always strive for the telling in a truthful manner. Yes, the truth is relative but the telling must be honest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly , I don&#039;t get the point. I have always said history is an extremely important subject, and not to study it imperils a society, especially a democratic one. But post modernism impinging on Historical Reality? Is this a serious problem. For years we  in the USA saw our history through rose colored glasses. This and the myths regarding the &#034;Lost Cause&#034; of the Confederacy and the Gone With the Wind memes of the  pre-Civil war South  , conspired to lead to a general decline in belief in the study of history or an extreme revisionism. We went from Heroic Cavalry vs.  Brutal-Indians , to Rapist Murderers vs. peaceful-Indians etc. Neither set-up being real. Military History is always important, as is cultural-social history. The best historians can synthesize the two.  I remember the enlightened  feeling I had when I read Lehman&#039;s &#034;The Promised Land&#034; and realized that the mechanized cotton picker had as much to do with the history of this country in the 50&#039;s as did the end of World War II.  Those who love and respect history must always strive for the telling in a truthful manner. Yes, the truth is relative but the telling must be honest.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Citino</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778556</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Citino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778556</guid>
		<description>Thoughtful criticism, Sean, and thanks for that.  

I can&#039;t say I agree with all the points you make.  I know a number of oral historians, for example, who do not necessarily consider themselves post-modernists.  

Let us agree to agree on one point you make, however:  &quot;Traditional history has always been easily sanitized and manipulated into propaganda. Hearing from all the participants is essential if the truth is to be discovered.&quot;

Right on to that.

--RC</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thoughtful criticism, Sean, and thanks for that.  </p>
<p>I can&#039;t say I agree with all the points you make.  I know a number of oral historians, for example, who do not necessarily consider themselves post-modernists.  </p>
<p>Let us agree to agree on one point you make, however:  &#034;Traditional history has always been easily sanitized and manipulated into propaganda. Hearing from all the participants is essential if the truth is to be discovered.&#034;</p>
<p>Right on to that.</p>
<p>&#8211;RC</p>
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		<title>By: Sean Oliver</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778555</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean Oliver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778555</guid>
		<description>Rob,
I respect your work a lot, but this post about so-called postmodernism is not your best.
Your description of &quot;postmodernism&quot; as an academic philosophy that &quot;refuses to accept reality&quot; and sees history as &quot;meaningless narrative&quot; is a misguided and inaccurate straw-man.

The postmodernist approach you describe (&quot;no such thing as reality&quot; etc) originated from, and applies to, the narrow world of the creative arts. It&#039;s a theory of art criticism which says: 

&quot;There is no one single criterion, or &#039;reality&#039; by which we can critique all works of art. There is no such thing as &quot;good&quot; vs &quot;bad&quot; art, the distinctions are meaningless. We all experience works of art differently, because art is a subjective experience, and each of our interpertations of art are equally valid.&quot;
 
We&#039;re talking about Picasso or Warhol, not Kursk or Midway.

These ideas about art criticism have never been seriously conflated with history. Art and history are not the same thing, and they cannot be studied and analyzed the same way. 

Instead po-mo historians might say that history has almost always been written by - and focused almost entirely on - the ruling elites. But the truth is that history is a mosaic of many different narratives which when assembled together, create a more complete picture of history.  
This is why it&#039;s necessary to include the stories of ignored and marginalized people. The lives of women, peasants, the poor, the working classes, non-white cultures, and religous minorities all contribute to history&#039;s mosaic.

As do the narratives of ordinary soldiers.

One of the ways to hear them is with oral history, which is a very &quot;postmodern&quot; method. It&#039;s especially good for veterans&#039; and their stories of war.

Traditional military history never bothered with oral history because warfare was studied primarily from the general&#039;s perspective, and soldiers were treated as mere casualty statistics. All of the &quot;important information&quot; was recorded by HQ and deposited in the archives.
Traditional history ignored the narratives told by the soldiers who fought at Kursk, and the stories told by the civillians of Lenningrad, because their narratives weren&#039;t as &quot;valuable&quot; as the narrative put forth by the authorities. In fact, those soldiers and civillians had things to say that the Soviet authorities did not want to be heard. Traditional history has always been easily sanitized and manipulated into propaganda. Hearing from all the participants is essential if the truth is to be discovered.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,<br />
I respect your work a lot, but this post about so-called postmodernism is not your best.<br />
Your description of &#034;postmodernism&#034; as an academic philosophy that &#034;refuses to accept reality&#034; and sees history as &#034;meaningless narrative&#034; is a misguided and inaccurate straw-man.</p>
<p>The postmodernist approach you describe (&#034;no such thing as reality&#034; etc) originated from, and applies to, the narrow world of the creative arts. It&#039;s a theory of art criticism which says: </p>
<p>&#034;There is no one single criterion, or &#039;reality&#039; by which we can critique all works of art. There is no such thing as &#034;good&#034; vs &#034;bad&#034; art, the distinctions are meaningless. We all experience works of art differently, because art is a subjective experience, and each of our interpertations of art are equally valid.&#034;</p>
<p>We&#039;re talking about Picasso or Warhol, not Kursk or Midway.</p>
<p>These ideas about art criticism have never been seriously conflated with history. Art and history are not the same thing, and they cannot be studied and analyzed the same way. </p>
<p>Instead po-mo historians might say that history has almost always been written by &#8211; and focused almost entirely on &#8211; the ruling elites. But the truth is that history is a mosaic of many different narratives which when assembled together, create a more complete picture of history.<br />
This is why it&#039;s necessary to include the stories of ignored and marginalized people. The lives of women, peasants, the poor, the working classes, non-white cultures, and religous minorities all contribute to history&#039;s mosaic.</p>
<p>As do the narratives of ordinary soldiers.</p>
<p>One of the ways to hear them is with oral history, which is a very &#034;postmodern&#034; method. It&#039;s especially good for veterans&#039; and their stories of war.</p>
<p>Traditional military history never bothered with oral history because warfare was studied primarily from the general&#039;s perspective, and soldiers were treated as mere casualty statistics. All of the &#034;important information&#034; was recorded by HQ and deposited in the archives.<br />
Traditional history ignored the narratives told by the soldiers who fought at Kursk, and the stories told by the civillians of Lenningrad, because their narratives weren&#039;t as &#034;valuable&#034; as the narrative put forth by the authorities. In fact, those soldiers and civillians had things to say that the Soviet authorities did not want to be heard. Traditional history has always been easily sanitized and manipulated into propaganda. Hearing from all the participants is essential if the truth is to be discovered.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike H.</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778522</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2011 16:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778522</guid>
		<description>I asked my Uncle John, An infantry veteran of WWII (9th INF) what he thought of those who said the Holocaust was a hoax, just before he passed. He got what I know  (from my own experience with Vietnam) as a &quot;thousand-yard stare&quot;...then told me what he had seen with his own two eyes; and told me that, should I ever encounter these people, to refer them to him and he would &quot;set them straight!&quot; This is what I mean about the True Story, from those who were really there. Please excuse any grammatical mistakes...I have something in my eyes...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I asked my Uncle John, An infantry veteran of WWII (9th INF) what he thought of those who said the Holocaust was a hoax, just before he passed. He got what I know  (from my own experience with Vietnam) as a &#034;thousand-yard stare&#034;&#8230;then told me what he had seen with his own two eyes; and told me that, should I ever encounter these people, to refer them to him and he would &#034;set them straight!&#034; This is what I mean about the True Story, from those who were really there. Please excuse any grammatical mistakes&#8230;I have something in my eyes&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-778508</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-778508</guid>
		<description>Too meney people distort/denie what happened, the mass murder of Jews and other undesirables  in Naxi Germany in the 1930s and 40s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too meney people distort/denie what happened, the mass murder of Jews and other undesirables  in Naxi Germany in the 1930s and 40s</p>
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		<title>By: Mike H.</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/narrative-real-life.htm#comment-776542</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Sep 2011 04:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13684287#comment-776542</guid>
		<description>Very true,Rob. Sadly, many (if not most) of us that were the children (or even the children&#039;s children) have heard about &quot;The War&quot; not only from teachers, professors, and other &quot;Historians&quot;, but also from our loved ones who were there, &quot;smelling the stench, hearing and feeling the noise, and seeing the carnage&quot;. Sadly, those details usually only came out after 2 or 3 (or more!!!) stiff drinks...and many of those stories were dismissed as &quot;war stories&quot;. (Q: what&#039;s the difference between a war story and a fairy tale? A: a fairy tale starts with &quot;Once upon a time&quot;, and a war story starts with,&quot;Now this is no s##t!!&quot;) We were told many things, and not all of them were the unvarnished truth...especially by our teachers. As a History Nut, I want the real story...and,sadly, the ones that can tell that story are dying in droves every day. I hope you will continue to bring your lessons to this forum for a LONG time to come. Again, thank you</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very true,Rob. Sadly, many (if not most) of us that were the children (or even the children&#039;s children) have heard about &#034;The War&#034; not only from teachers, professors, and other &#034;Historians&#034;, but also from our loved ones who were there, &#034;smelling the stench, hearing and feeling the noise, and seeing the carnage&#034;. Sadly, those details usually only came out after 2 or 3 (or more!!!) stiff drinks&#8230;and many of those stories were dismissed as &#034;war stories&#034;. (Q: what&#039;s the difference between a war story and a fairy tale? A: a fairy tale starts with &#034;Once upon a time&#034;, and a war story starts with,&#034;Now this is no s##t!!&#034;) We were told many things, and not all of them were the unvarnished truth&#8230;especially by our teachers. As a History Nut, I want the real story&#8230;and,sadly, the ones that can tell that story are dying in droves every day. I hope you will continue to bring your lessons to this forum for a LONG time to come. Again, thank you</p>
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