Comments on: Mongol Invasions: Battle of Liegnitz http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:48:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Motorcycleboy http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-1168486 Motorcycleboy Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:23:24 +0000 #comment-1168486 According to my understanding of Western Europe in the middle ages there was the beginning of a concern for ethics in warfare at that time. For instance when 53 Teutonic Knights were tortured and killed by the Prussians after being promised safe passage when they surrendered their castle this caused outrage among the Teutonic Knights because this behavior was contrary to their code of honor. Having decided that the Prussians were 'savage and barbarous' as a consequence of this incident the Teutonic Knights may have resorted to shock tactics in the countryside. However, after much Googling I have not been able to find references to incidents in which the Teutonic Knights committed atrocities against civilians and prisoners. People tend to assume that when indigenous peoples disappear they must have been exterminated, but in the case of Prussia what happened is that when Prussian armies surrendered they and their families were resettled and their land taken by German immigrants. Yes, all armies kill prisoners and civilians and loot to some extent, but in this respect the Mongols were in a league of their own. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on Russia that may throw new light on personal hygiene in the middle ages. "because of the lower population density and better hygiene (widespread practicing of banya, the wet steam bath), the population loss caused by plagues was not so severe as in the Western Europe" According to my understanding of Western Europe in the middle ages there was the beginning of a concern for ethics in warfare at that time. For instance when 53 Teutonic Knights were tortured and killed by the Prussians after being promised safe passage when they surrendered their castle this caused outrage among the Teutonic Knights because this behavior was contrary to their code of honor. Having decided that the Prussians were 'savage and barbarous' as a consequence of this incident the Teutonic Knights may have resorted to shock tactics in the countryside. However, after much Googling I have not been able to find references to incidents in which the Teutonic Knights committed atrocities against civilians and prisoners. People tend to assume that when indigenous peoples disappear they must have been exterminated, but in the case of Prussia what happened is that when Prussian armies surrendered they and their families were resettled and their land taken by German immigrants.

Yes, all armies kill prisoners and civilians and loot to some extent, but in this respect the Mongols were in a league of their own.

Here is a quote from the Wikipedia article on Russia that may throw new light on personal hygiene in the middle ages.

"because of the lower population density and better hygiene (widespread practicing of banya, the wet steam bath), the population loss caused by plagues was not so severe as in the Western Europe"

]]> By: Motorcycleboy http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-1168473 Motorcycleboy Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:08:42 +0000 #comment-1168473 The Mongols did not need a reason to conquer a region such as it being useful to them. They conquered because they thought they had a divinely inspired mission to create a one world government, and, paradoxically, create everlasting peace. The Mongols did not need a reason to conquer a region such as it being useful to them. They conquered because they thought they had a divinely inspired mission to create a one world government, and, paradoxically, create everlasting peace.

]]> By: Motorcycleboy http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-1168468 Motorcycleboy Sat, 08 Jun 2013 17:00:49 +0000 #comment-1168468 This is a mysterious episode in the invasion of Europe of 1241 that deserves to be more fully researched and the the results published by Erik Hildinger. It seems that the Mongol force that invaded Poland were repelled in their first encounter with the Holy Roman Empire. Here is a quotation from this source: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Russia/Chapter_10. ".........had their progress a long while arrested by the courageous defense of Olmütz in Moravia, by the Tcheque voïevode Iaroslaf and stopped finally, learning that a large army, commanded by the King of Bohemia and the dukes of Austria and Carinthia, was approaching". As far as I can make out an advance guard of Mongols were defeated in an encounter with the calvary accompanying Wenceslaus 1 as he was traveling to Austria to gather an army to oppose the Mongols. These incidents may throw some light on speculation about what might have happened had the Mongols permanently occupied Hungary and continued their plans to invade Austria. Would they have swept all before them, or would they have found themselves in a deadlock just as the Ottomans had been later? This is a mysterious episode in the invasion of Europe of 1241 that deserves to be more fully researched and the the results published by Erik Hildinger. It seems that the Mongol force that invaded Poland were repelled in their first encounter with the Holy Roman Empire. Here is a quotation from this source: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Russia/Chapter_10.

"………had their progress a long while arrested by the courageous defense of Olmütz in Moravia, by the Tcheque voïevode Iaroslaf and stopped finally, learning that a large army, commanded by the King of Bohemia and the dukes of Austria and Carinthia, was approaching".

As far as I can make out an advance guard of Mongols were defeated in an encounter with the calvary accompanying Wenceslaus 1 as he was traveling to Austria to gather an army to oppose the Mongols. These incidents may throw some light on speculation about what might have happened had the Mongols permanently occupied Hungary and continued their plans to invade Austria. Would they have swept all before them, or would they have found themselves in a deadlock just as the Ottomans had been later?

]]> By: Peter http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-1030073 Peter Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:26:50 +0000 #comment-1030073 Map of Poland in 1241 before the battle of Legnica: http://s24.postimg.org/ai85hru91/Poland_1241.png Map of Poland in 1241 before the battle of Legnica:

http://s24.postimg.org/ai85hru91/Poland_1241.png

]]> By: Tall Mohammad, the Lipka Tatar http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-876234 Tall Mohammad, the Lipka Tatar Tue, 12 Feb 2013 01:19:16 +0000 #comment-876234 Being Smelly was not a monopoly of any one group in those times. It was also a very common feature of many or most Europeans in the 13th C who were not in the habit of bathing frequently, as it was feared to cause disease. Imagine waking down an alley or street in London in the morning, trying to dodge the contents of filthy bed pans as the were thrown or poured in the street every day (this imagery was courtesy of my visit to the museum of the city of London a number of years ago) Looting was practiced at this time by every conquering force or Army. The atrocities committed by the Tatars were actually far less than what the Teutonic knights committed against the Native Prussians during this same time period. I would posit the idea that the invasion of Europe by the Tatars was divine retribution for the inhumane atrocities committed in and during the Northern, Prussian and Baltic crusades by the Teutonic knights (among others) Being Smelly was not a monopoly of any one group in those times. It was also a very common feature of many or most Europeans in the 13th C who were not in the habit of bathing frequently, as it was feared to cause disease. Imagine waking down an alley or street in London in the morning, trying to dodge the contents of filthy bed pans as the were thrown or poured in the street every day (this imagery was courtesy of my visit to the museum of the city of London a number of years ago)
Looting was practiced at this time by every conquering force or Army.
The atrocities committed by the Tatars were actually far less than what the Teutonic knights committed against the Native Prussians during this same time period. I would posit the idea that the invasion of Europe by the Tatars was divine retribution for the inhumane atrocities committed in and during the Northern, Prussian and Baltic crusades by the Teutonic knights (among others)

]]> By: Prof.Yoshio.N http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-834701 Prof.Yoshio.N Sun, 20 Jan 2013 00:43:59 +0000 #comment-834701 As one would understand, The samurai faced with a large organized enemy would have tremendous difficulty joining former enemy clans and combining strategy and tactics to defeat them without any prior training. The Mongols fought together lived together whereas the Samurai were constantly at war with each other clans..so to ask them in the face of a large Mongol army on land in Japan to join together in a very precise formation of a army to defeat the experienced mongols is almost impossible to believe. questions such as who's tactics shall we use.. battlefield communications and chain of command decisions to be made with former warlords is just a small part of this impossible problem..surely the Mongols would have eventual success. As one would understand, The samurai faced with a large organized enemy would have tremendous difficulty joining former enemy clans and combining strategy and tactics to defeat them without any prior training. The Mongols fought together lived together whereas the Samurai were constantly at war with each other clans..so to ask them in the face of a large Mongol army on land in Japan to join together in a very precise formation of a army to defeat the experienced mongols is almost impossible to believe. questions such as who's tactics shall we use.. battlefield communications and chain of command decisions to be made with former warlords is just a small part of this impossible problem..surely the Mongols would have eventual success.

]]> By: knight of Arabia http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-828988 knight of Arabia Thu, 27 Dec 2012 11:22:54 +0000 #comment-828988 Because the mongol empire was divided after that Because the mongol empire was divided after that

]]> By: joe and vernadene http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-825262 joe and vernadene Sun, 25 Nov 2012 07:35:56 +0000 #comment-825262 Poles eventually became as victors, history is written by the victors. Poles eventually became as victors,
history is written by the victors.

]]> By: Motorcycleboy http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-824520 Motorcycleboy Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:08:14 +0000 #comment-824520 Proud of smelly barbarians engaged in looting, burning, raping and atrocities? Proud of smelly barbarians engaged in looting, burning, raping and atrocities?

]]> By: Motorcycleboy http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm#comment-824519 Motorcycleboy Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:05:04 +0000 #comment-824519 Rune Voldsbekk wrote: "Just as the present world power, USA, has its power mainly as a result of not being seriously hit by WW2 and WW1, a large portion of the world powers of the last 500 years are the ones on the outside borders of Mongol conquest. (Turkey/Ottoman, Egypt, Russia, Western Europe, India, Japan, Siam, Vietnam)." A very perceptive comment. It is possible that one reason why Western Europe and it's colonies dominated the world is because they had never fallen prey to nomadic horsemen since prehistoric times. Most of the great civilizations of Eurasia had been ruled at some time by a military elite of Arab, Turkic or Mongol origins who owed their military preeminence to the fact that they originated from societies with a large proportion of the population engaged in nomadic herding. This means that advanced civilizations like Persia and China were dominated by people at a lower cultural level. Not so advanced nations like the Rus Principalities may have been retarded in their development by their subjection to nomad warriors. Rune Voldsbekk wrote:

"Just as the present world power, USA, has its power mainly as a result of not being seriously hit by WW2 and WW1, a large portion of the world powers of the last 500 years are the ones on the outside borders of Mongol conquest. (Turkey/Ottoman, Egypt, Russia, Western Europe, India, Japan, Siam, Vietnam)."

A very perceptive comment. It is possible that one reason why Western Europe and it's colonies dominated the world is because they had never fallen prey to nomadic horsemen since prehistoric times. Most of the great civilizations of Eurasia had been ruled at some time by a military elite of Arab, Turkic or Mongol origins who owed their military preeminence to the fact that they originated from societies with a large proportion of the population engaged in nomadic herding. This means that advanced civilizations like Persia and China were dominated by people at a lower cultural level. Not so advanced nations like the Rus Principalities may have been retarded in their development by their subjection to nomad warriors.

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