Comments on: Is the P-51 the best all-around fighter of World War II? http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:48:34 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: James W. http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1098082 James W. Wed, 08 May 2013 06:29:36 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1098082 Better do some further homework.. The Spitfires in service could not catch the Fw 190 on the deck.. The Typhoon & Mustang I.. in service `42-43..could.. The Griffon Spitfire used that stunt was NOT a Mk XII , it was a hand-built one-off prototype factory hot-rod..it was not 'relevant'.. You should check some of the USAAF 8th AF P-51 gun-camera footage which clearly shows the 'Me 410s' they are credited with destroying are in fact Mosquitos, & indeed the 8th AF had to start painting the tails of their own PR Mosquitos red as extra ID.. As for Spiteful...take a look at one planform-wise.. very P-51-like.. There are classes at Reno for 'stocker' unmodded warbirds too & I 'm sure it would be welcomed to purr around at its best speed.. That R-R 'dirty tricks' stuff is true, check it out.. & Every Sabre equipped Tempest had a higher take-off power rating than any service Spitfire... Better do some further homework..

The Spitfires in service could not catch the Fw 190 on the deck..

The Typhoon & Mustang I.. in service `42-43..could..

The Griffon Spitfire used that stunt was NOT a Mk XII , it was a hand-built one-off prototype factory hot-rod..it was not 'relevant'..

You should check some of the USAAF 8th AF P-51 gun-camera footage which clearly shows the 'Me 410s' they are credited with destroying are in fact Mosquitos, & indeed the 8th AF had to start painting the tails of their own PR Mosquitos red as extra ID..

As for Spiteful…take a look at one planform-wise.. very P-51-like..

There are classes at Reno for 'stocker' unmodded warbirds too
& I 'm sure it would be welcomed to purr around at its best speed..

That R-R 'dirty tricks' stuff is true, check it out..

& Every Sabre equipped Tempest had a higher take-off power rating than any service Spitfire…

]]> By: better than the Mustang http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1098010 better than the Mustang Wed, 08 May 2013 06:01:04 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1098010 Reno racing is for highly modified aircraft and Hawker Furies which had the Bristol Centaurus engine are very good for this, Since the Tempest like the Fury is very good at low level there would be little point in modifying a Spitfire, maybe if there were any Spiteful`s around it would be different, How many P 51`s with the original Merlin engine have raced at Reno. I know a very much modified P 51 with a Griffon engine has. Reno racing is for highly modified aircraft and Hawker Furies which had the Bristol Centaurus engine are very good for this, Since the Tempest like the Fury is very good at low level there would be little point in modifying a Spitfire, maybe if there were any Spiteful`s around it would be different, How many P 51`s with the original Merlin engine have raced at Reno. I know a very much modified P 51 with a Griffon engine has.

]]> By: better than the Mustang http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1097988 better than the Mustang Wed, 08 May 2013 05:53:49 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1097988 The Sabre in use in the tempest did not achieve 3,500 hp, and the Fury was tried with the more powerful Sabre, but in production it got the Bristol Centaurus That is rubbish about RR and Napier. The trial had nothing to do with RR, the prototype Mk XII was no faster than the production fighter. The Typhoon was faster than a Mk V, but that is irrelevant . The P 51 D had a range of 1155 miles at 294 mph at 20,000 feet or with drop tanks 2055 miles at 280 mph at 20,000 feet if it cruised at 390 mph the range was much less. If it was to escort bombers for a useful distance the P 51 needed an escort as far as the German border. The Spitfire Mk IX acceleration, climb and turn were much better and with the clipped wings the LF Mk IX with clipped wings had a better rate of roll. The Spitfire Mk XIV which entered service 6 months before the P 51 D was much faster. P 51`s which escorted an unarmed photo reconnaissance Mosquito to Poland could not keep pace, the Mosquito pilot had drop well below his economical cruising speed so they could keep up and after reaching Poland and taking the photo`s they were attacked by Me 262`s, the Mosquito pilot opened up and avoided one 262 while the P 51`s were in combat with the others with no losses on either side. The P 51`s never caught up with the Mosquito which got back safely and the P 51`s only just got back very low on fuel. The Sabre in use in the tempest did not achieve 3,500 hp, and the Fury was tried with the more powerful Sabre, but in production it got the Bristol Centaurus

That is rubbish about RR and Napier.
The trial had nothing to do with RR, the prototype Mk XII was no faster than the production fighter.

The Typhoon was faster than a Mk V, but that is irrelevant .

The P 51 D had a range of 1155 miles at 294 mph at 20,000 feet
or with drop tanks 2055 miles at 280 mph at 20,000 feet if it cruised at 390 mph the range was much less. If it was to escort bombers for a useful distance the P 51 needed an escort as far as the German border.
The Spitfire Mk IX acceleration, climb and turn were much better and with the clipped wings the LF Mk IX with clipped wings had a better rate of roll. The Spitfire Mk XIV which entered service 6 months before the P 51 D was much faster.
P 51`s which escorted an unarmed photo reconnaissance Mosquito to Poland could not keep pace, the Mosquito pilot had drop well below his economical cruising speed so they could keep up and after reaching Poland and taking the photo`s they were attacked by Me 262`s, the Mosquito pilot opened up and avoided one 262 while the P 51`s were in combat with the others with no losses on either side. The P 51`s never caught up with the Mosquito which got back safely and the P 51`s only just got back very low on fuel.

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1092885 JamesW. Mon, 06 May 2013 10:12:48 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1092885 Reno racing isn't for daydreamers.. If the Spitfire was up to it, it would have been raced.. Mustangs have raced successfully, as Hawker Furies have been, & even Yakovlevs.. Reno racing isn't for daydreamers..
If the Spitfire was up to it, it would have been raced..
Mustangs have raced successfully, as
Hawker Furies have been, & even Yakovlevs..

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1092231 JamesW. Sun, 05 May 2013 23:05:08 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1092231 Better do more fact checking.. Typhoon/Tempest high cruising speed was due to the high revving Sabre mill, cruising speed of the Tempest was likewise ~390mph.. What make of aero-engine did Supermarine use? R-R were very pro-active to protect their market share.. & by 1945 the Sabre was rated at 3,500hp..see http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org /Aircraft_Engines_of_the_World_Napier_Sabre.pdf Better do more fact checking..

Typhoon/Tempest high cruising speed was due to the high revving Sabre mill, cruising speed of the Tempest was likewise ~390mph..

What make of aero-engine did Supermarine use?

R-R were very pro-active to protect their market share..

& by 1945 the Sabre was rated at 3,500hp..see

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org
/Aircraft_Engines_of_the_World_Napier_Sabre.pdf

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1091201 JamesW. Sun, 05 May 2013 10:46:54 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1091201 Comments on R-R 'dirty tricks' re Napier.. http://www.hawkertempest.se/GreatestEngines.htm Comments on R-R 'dirty tricks' re Napier..

http://www.hawkertempest.se/GreatestEngines.htm

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1091191 JamesW. Sun, 05 May 2013 10:37:06 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1091191 'Better' wake-up & do some more homework.. http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945 - 283.html Check the relative power out-puts of Sabre vs Griffon..in 1945. The Sabre was far more powerful.. R-R did its best to stymie the Sabre program, but when you cant beat them..poach their design.. That R-R cheat/stunt was not a trial.. Official service trials - when the Typhoon was compared with the in-service Spit V.. '...showed the Typhoon to be 40mph faster at all levels above 14,000ft, & even faster below that level.' The Merlin Mustang could cruise at ~390 mph..that is.. within~20mph of the Spit IXs top speed. Dive, zoom & high speed roll were superior too.. 'Better' wake-up & do some more homework..

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1945/1945 – 283.html

Check the relative power out-puts of Sabre vs Griffon..in 1945.

The Sabre was far more powerful..

R-R did its best to stymie the Sabre program, but when you cant beat them..poach their design..

That R-R cheat/stunt was not a trial..

Official service trials – when the Typhoon was compared with the in-service Spit V..

'…showed the Typhoon to be 40mph faster at all levels above 14,000ft, & even faster below that level.'

The Merlin Mustang could cruise at ~390 mph..that is.. within~20mph of the Spit IXs top speed.
Dive, zoom & high speed roll were superior too..

]]> By: better than the Mustang http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1091106 better than the Mustang Sun, 05 May 2013 09:05:18 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1091106 The Better in some combat maneuvres is? . The almost as well is a much lower rate of climb, much worse acceleration and a turn radius of over 200 feet greater than the Spitfire Mk IX, also the range is at the cost of both performance and handling. when carrying a full fuel load the cruise speed is very slow, They had to be escorted as far as the German border if they were to escort the bombers into Germany and back. The Typhoon cruising speed is lower than the Spitfire Mk II. The 3 speed 2 stage supercharger was developed in 1942 but this promising avenue was not pursued and never got into production. I think maybe you are a bit of a daydreamer. The Better in some combat maneuvres is? . The almost as well is a much lower rate of climb, much worse acceleration and a turn radius of over 200 feet greater than the Spitfire Mk IX, also the range is at the cost of both performance and handling. when carrying a full fuel load the cruise speed is very slow, They had to be escorted as far as the German border if they were to escort the bombers into Germany and back. The Typhoon cruising speed is lower than the Spitfire Mk II. The 3 speed 2 stage supercharger was developed in 1942 but this promising avenue was not pursued and never got into production. I think maybe you are a bit of a daydreamer.

]]> By: better than the Mustang http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1091078 better than the Mustang Sun, 05 May 2013 08:29:40 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1091078 The Griffon as used in the Spitfire Mk XIV had 2,035 hp, this increased to 2,375 hp, this was from 1943, the Mk XIV entered service in January 1944, The Typhoon had 2,065hp increasing to 2,240 hp. The Tempest had 2,400 hp also entered service January 1944, The 3,000 hp was intended for the Hawker Fury. The Spitfire had better aerodynamics than the Typhoon, The Tempest Mk V was faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV below 20,000 feet it was not as fast at higher altitude. Both were considerably faster than the P 51 at low level and the Spitfire Mk XIV was faster than the P 51 at any height. The trial of Typhoon against Fw 190 was not a publicity stunt it was not done by RR. Supermarine supplied the Spitfire for the flight. Also there was no advantage with the prototype Mk XII which had the Griffon II B and an experimental propeller that gave lower performance than the Griffon III in the production fighter. I thought the A 36 was basically the same as the P 51 but used as a dive bomber, for which it did need dive brakes. Ranger sorties sometimes involved combat, how did the Mustang fare in these combats, certainly no good if they were not at very low level. If you could afford a Spitfire why would you risk it in Reno air races. The Hawker Fury will make the P 51 look slow. I wonder why the P 51 has been fitted with RR Griffon engine for Reno air races The Griffon as used in the Spitfire Mk XIV had 2,035 hp, this increased to 2,375 hp, this was from 1943, the Mk XIV entered service in January 1944, The Typhoon had 2,065hp increasing to 2,240 hp. The Tempest had 2,400 hp also entered service January 1944, The 3,000 hp was intended for the Hawker Fury. The Spitfire had better aerodynamics than the Typhoon, The Tempest Mk V was faster than the Spitfire Mk XIV below 20,000 feet it was not as fast at higher altitude. Both were considerably faster than the P 51 at low level and the Spitfire Mk XIV was faster than the P 51 at any height.
The trial of Typhoon against Fw 190 was not a publicity stunt it was not done by RR. Supermarine supplied the Spitfire for the flight. Also there was no advantage with the prototype Mk XII which had the Griffon II B and an experimental propeller that gave lower performance than the Griffon III in the production fighter. I thought the A 36 was basically the same as the P 51 but used as a dive bomber, for which it did need dive brakes. Ranger sorties sometimes involved combat, how did the Mustang fare in these combats, certainly no good if they were not at very low level. If you could afford a Spitfire why would you risk it in Reno air races. The Hawker Fury will make the P 51 look slow. I wonder why the P 51 has been fitted with RR Griffon engine for Reno air races

]]> By: JamesW. http://www.historynet.com/is-the-p-51-the-best-all-around-fighter-of-world-war-ii.htm#comment-1090724 JamesW. Sun, 05 May 2013 02:17:27 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13683199#comment-1090724 The big P-51 advantage over the similarly powered Spitfire was its aerodynamic efficiency, which allowed a heavier airframe to perform almost as well in most combat manoeuvres,[ better in some] & carry more fuel/range further at a significantly higher cruising speed.. The Sabre-engined Hawker fighters also had a high cruising speed due to their power/engine output characteristics.. Note also that although of almost identical cubic capacity the R-R Griffon could never match the contemporary Sabre in specific output/hp-to-weight terms - even though it enjoyed far high boost levels endowed by Sir Stanley Hooker's excellent supercharger developments [that R-R would not share with Napier, 'war on' or not].. The big P-51 advantage over the similarly powered Spitfire was its aerodynamic efficiency, which allowed a heavier airframe to perform almost as well in most combat manoeuvres,[ better in some] & carry more fuel/range further at a significantly higher cruising speed..

The Sabre-engined Hawker fighters also had a high cruising speed due to their power/engine output characteristics..

Note also that although of almost identical cubic capacity the R-R Griffon could never match the contemporary Sabre in specific output/hp-to-weight terms – even though it enjoyed far high boost levels endowed by Sir Stanley Hooker's excellent supercharger developments [that R-R would not share with Napier, 'war on' or not]..

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