Comments on: Folly in the Philippines http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Tue, 18 Jun 2013 22:25:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Wong Hoong Hooi http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-785529 Wong Hoong Hooi Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:04:11 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-785529 By this argument Iran working covertly to co-opt Shia (Shiite) majority Iraq would be another one of those "difficult choices" leaders have to make. From the Iranian point of view, rather that than the uncertainty of an unstable neighbour undermined by Sunni Saudi Arabia. I suppose half of Americans would be nodding approval for this one ? The problem with your argument of "necessary difficult choices" is that it is always from somebody's point-of-view, often overriding the point-of-view of "the natives." By this argument Iran working covertly to co-opt Shia (Shiite) majority Iraq would be another one of those "difficult choices" leaders have to make. From the Iranian point of view, rather that than the uncertainty of an unstable neighbour undermined by Sunni Saudi Arabia. I suppose half of Americans would be nodding approval for this one ?

The problem with your argument of "necessary difficult choices" is that it is always from somebody's point-of-view, often overriding the point-of-view of "the natives."

]]> By: Wong Hoong Hooi http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-785528 Wong Hoong Hooi Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:41:22 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-785528 1. This line of argument continues to be used to justify Western imperialism and colonialism, both by Westerners and the Western-conditioned: a) Thus a professor of the US Naval War College has written that the negative effects of Western imperialism in China were (quote) "self-inflicted"). The argument went that because the Chinese weren't wise or quick enough to modernise following the Western example, they self-inflicted treatment by the West on themselves. b) Similarly the Opium Wars, fought to protect the trade of drug runners, were actually "self-inflicted" because the Chinese didn't see the benefits of "free trade". 2. By this argument, colonialism is defensible to this day - i.e. "backward" peoples arguably need to be rescued from themselves or their own kind and given the benefits of modernity through occupation. 3. By this argument, given that almost every bit of knowledge and technology the American colonists had in 1776 came from Britain and the social order of monarchies in Europe, the colonists should have stayed as British subjects to enjoy the benefits of modenrity conferred through colonialism and imperialism. 4. No way in hell you would have stayed a colony ? It's possible/ preferrable to modernise, even at an erratic pace, without being colonised ? Well, therein lies the flaw in the line of argument of tioedong. 1. This line of argument continues to be used to justify Western imperialism and colonialism, both by Westerners and the Western-conditioned:

a) Thus a professor of the US Naval War College has written that the negative effects of Western imperialism in China were (quote) "self-inflicted"). The argument went that because the Chinese weren't wise or quick enough to modernise following the Western example, they self-inflicted treatment by the West on themselves.

b) Similarly the Opium Wars, fought to protect the trade of drug runners, were actually "self-inflicted" because the Chinese didn't see the benefits of "free trade".

2. By this argument, colonialism is defensible to this day – i.e. "backward" peoples arguably need to be rescued from themselves or their own kind and given the benefits of modernity through occupation.

3. By this argument, given that almost every bit of knowledge and technology the American colonists had in 1776 came from Britain and the social order of monarchies in Europe, the colonists should have stayed as British subjects to enjoy the benefits of modenrity conferred through colonialism and imperialism.

4. No way in hell you would have stayed a colony ? It's possible/ preferrable to modernise, even at an erratic pace, without being colonised ? Well, therein lies the flaw in the line of argument of tioedong.

]]> By: Chico http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-539495 Chico Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:30:36 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-539495 Ah, the Monday Morning quarterbacking of history. The Spanish couldn't hold the Philipines, and the folks there weren't strong enough to resist the Japanese and German empires. The evil USA gave the islands INDEPENDENCE, something the Japanese and Germans would never have done. Imagine WWI or WWII with the Germans or Japanese already in control of the archipelago, and tell me why exactly we should have let the Philippines fall into the hands of the fascists. History is full of many such difficult choices. Leaders have to make them; Sniveling internet historians get to look down their noses and always tell us how they'd have done it better. Ah, the Monday Morning quarterbacking of history. The Spanish couldn't hold the Philipines, and the folks there weren't strong enough to resist the Japanese and German empires. The evil USA gave the islands INDEPENDENCE, something the Japanese and Germans would never have done. Imagine WWI or WWII with the Germans or Japanese already in control of the archipelago, and tell me why exactly we should have let the Philippines fall into the hands of the fascists.

History is full of many such difficult choices. Leaders have to make them; Sniveling internet historians get to look down their noses and always tell us how they'd have done it better.

]]> By: aifor http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-424417 aifor Tue, 11 Jan 2011 12:51:15 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-424417 James Kavanagh, the one known as the boy general is Gregorio del Pilar, he died leading the rear guard of Aguinaldo. Pio del Pilar is a different general altogether. They are not related. James Kavanagh, the one known as the boy general is Gregorio del Pilar, he died leading the rear guard of Aguinaldo. Pio del Pilar is a different general altogether. They are not related.

]]> By: James Kavanagh http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-350591 James Kavanagh Sat, 16 Oct 2010 02:57:21 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-350591 Bias was evident from the outset, but still a good read. The photo on page 81 is mis-identified. That is a picture of Pio del Pilar. His nom de gurre. He was 'The Boy General." I have a giant two volume set "Our Islands and Their People." Cuba, Porto Rico, Hawaii, and The Philippines. Gen. del Pilar is clearly identified. Aguinaldo is on the money. A rare lapse. MHQ. God finally said Americans out of the PI. Pinatubo. Just got back. 6th trip. James Kavanagh, M.D. Bias was evident from the outset, but still a good read.
The photo on page 81 is mis-identified. That is a picture of Pio del Pilar. His nom de gurre. He was 'The Boy General."

I have a giant two volume set "Our Islands and Their People." Cuba, Porto Rico, Hawaii, and The Philippines. Gen. del Pilar is clearly identified. Aguinaldo is on the money.

A rare lapse. MHQ. God finally said Americans out of the PI. Pinatubo.
Just got back. 6th trip.

James Kavanagh, M.D.

]]> By: Glenn Palmer http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-329840 Glenn Palmer Fri, 03 Sep 2010 10:48:36 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-329840 Rod Paschall's article on the Philippines was interesting, but it was too agenda driven and painted the Americans in a poor light when the facts just are not there. Three examples: 1.) the term "brain washing" is used to describe Aquinaldo's change of heart. The term brainwashing brings up connotations of POWs, isolated for years. Aquinaldo was talked to for 23 days. It could have been "intense persuasion, promises, and reasoning." Perhaps Aquinaldo realized that he could not win. The fact that he was not tortured and treated humanely, unlike what he did to others, may have been part of his reasoning to lay down arms. 2.) " A lieutenant of the 35th Infantry was found guilty of striking a prisoner. The punishments for these acts were quite lenient. For instance, the 35th Infantry lieutenant was only fined $300, about two and a half months' pay." How is this punishment considered lenient? Losing 2 1/2 months pay is a huge fine. There are very few courts today that would fine somebody today $10,000 for hitting someone. 3.) Paschall throws out that there were 200,000 Filipino deaths, but does not explain where he got that figure from. Nor does he say how many of those were Filipinos killed by Filipinos, versus Filipinos killed by Americans. His use of the term "butcher's bill" is derogatory. He also does not show how much better the lives of the Filipinos were after the Americans took over. After 350 years of Spanish rule, in 1898 there were 5,000 pupils. By 1920 there were one million pupils and only 300 of the teachers were foreigners. In 1907 the Filipinos had their first elected representative assembly, just nine years after the Spanish-American War ended, and only 6 years after the end of the insurgency. While he mentions the buying of the land from the Vatican, he does not discuss that 50,000 landless farmers got the land. Rod Paschall's article on the Philippines was interesting, but it was too agenda driven and painted the Americans in a poor light when the facts just are not there. Three examples: 1.) the term "brain washing" is used to describe Aquinaldo's change of heart. The term brainwashing brings up connotations of POWs, isolated for years. Aquinaldo was talked to for 23 days. It could have been "intense persuasion, promises, and reasoning." Perhaps Aquinaldo realized that he could not win. The fact that he was not tortured and treated humanely, unlike what he did to others, may have been part of his reasoning to lay down arms.
2.) " A lieutenant of the 35th Infantry was found guilty of striking a prisoner. The punishments for these acts were quite lenient. For instance, the 35th Infantry lieutenant was only fined $300, about two and a half months' pay." How is this punishment considered lenient? Losing 2 1/2 months pay is a huge fine. There are very few courts today that would fine somebody today $10,000 for hitting someone.
3.) Paschall throws out that there were 200,000 Filipino deaths, but does not explain where he got that figure from. Nor does he say how many of those were Filipinos killed by Filipinos, versus Filipinos killed by Americans. His use of the term "butcher's bill" is derogatory.
He also does not show how much better the lives of the Filipinos were after the Americans took over. After 350 years of Spanish rule, in 1898 there were 5,000 pupils. By 1920 there were one million pupils and only 300 of the teachers were foreigners. In 1907 the Filipinos had their first elected representative assembly, just nine years after the Spanish-American War ended, and only 6 years after the end of the insurgency. While he mentions the buying of the land from the Vatican, he does not discuss that 50,000 landless farmers got the land.

]]> By: ike suarez http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-319955 ike suarez Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:50:03 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-319955 Hi: Just another comment. Point of grammar: The Philippines is a singular not plural noun. Filipinos who find their country taken in the plural often consider this condescending and colonial. Hi:

Just another comment. Point of grammar: The Philippines is a singular not plural noun.
Filipinos who find their country taken in the plural often consider this condescending and colonial.

]]> By: ike suarez http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-319953 ike suarez Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:48:37 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-319953 Hi: In the late 1960s and early 1970s, gaining greater knowledge of the Fil-American War was often the gateway to becoming a campus radical. Memories of this episode in Philippine and American history have long been repressed in both countries. Hi:
In the late 1960s and early 1970s, gaining greater knowledge of the Fil-American War was often the gateway to becoming a campus radical.
Memories of this episode in Philippine and American history have long been repressed in both countries.

]]> By: tioedong http://www.historynet.com/folly-in-the-philippines.htm#comment-318987 tioedong Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:39:02 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682689#comment-318987 A bit hard on the US, aren't you? Like the Romans, the US took over, then let the ones who ran the country in the past run it again. But the fight to take over had a lot of atrocities (some say 500 000) and was opposed my many Americans. But because the US took over, it meant that the poor folks got educated. So if your doc is a Filipino, or if your car uses oil from the many countries that hire Filipinos to run their wells, you can thank the Filipino diaspora, educated thanks to the US but still unable to make it in a country where the rich families try to stay in charge. A bit hard on the US, aren't you?

Like the Romans, the US took over, then let the ones who ran the country in the past run it again.

But the fight to take over had a lot of atrocities (some say 500 000) and was opposed my many Americans.

But because the US took over, it meant that the poor folks got educated.

So if your doc is a Filipino, or if your car uses oil from the many countries that hire Filipinos to run their wells, you can thank the Filipino diaspora, educated thanks to the US but still unable to make it in a country where the rich families try to stay in charge.

]]>