Comments on: Dueling Narratives: Panzer Meyer and the Canadians http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Tue, 21 May 2013 05:57:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: The Forester http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-1093845 The Forester Mon, 06 May 2013 19:25:07 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-1093845 Go to the US Army Center for Military History web site Green Books link. Go to the US Army Center for Military History web site Green Books link.

]]> By: WhiskeyRiver http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-829855 WhiskeyRiver Sun, 30 Dec 2012 22:24:04 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-829855 Kurt had two nicknames.One,of course,"Panzer"meyer,from his younger days with friends,and falling off a roof.The other,was "Schnelle" Meyer,.. because he was always riding his motorcycle out in front of his troops.Always taking off so fast(hence schnelle),just to make it out there,.. Kurt had two nicknames.One,of course,"Panzer"meyer,from his younger days with friends,and falling off a roof.The other,was "Schnelle" Meyer,..
because he was always riding his motorcycle out in front of his troops.Always taking off so fast(hence schnelle),just to make it out there,..

]]> By: Sandra Kleinschmit http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-819911 Sandra Kleinschmit Fri, 05 Oct 2012 00:53:03 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-819911 Ya know,..if it's anyone BUT the Germans who are great warriors,able to kill their prey easily and quickly,..they are feted and celebrated.I mean Anyone,..but the German soldiers. It's been said that Kurt Meyer was one of the greatest fighters that ever lived. Never did he hide from his duty,sitting behind the lines in a truck,he was always right out there with his men,whom he cared much for.I wish people would let up on the German people,and allow them to be proud of their own fine Warriors.If we Americans,and the Canadians,English,and others can,so can they. All sides committed what some might call murder,so why is it that only the German officers,..notably of the Waffen SS,..were persecuted and executed for their'crimes',..and not the US officers who shot unarmed surrendering German Wehrmacht soldiers? Only the winners are the good ones,.. Ya know,..if it's anyone BUT the Germans who are great warriors,able to kill their prey easily and quickly,..they are feted and celebrated.I mean Anyone,..but the German soldiers. It's been said that Kurt Meyer was one of the greatest fighters that ever lived. Never did he hide from his duty,sitting behind the lines in a truck,he was always right out there with his men,whom he cared much for.I wish people would let up on the German people,and allow them to be proud of their own fine Warriors.If we Americans,and the Canadians,English,and others can,so can they.
All sides committed what some might call murder,so why is it that only the German officers,..notably of the Waffen SS,..were persecuted and executed for their'crimes',..and not the US officers who shot unarmed surrendering German Wehrmacht soldiers? Only the winners are the good ones,..

]]> By: William Rolston http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-280480 William Rolston Thu, 20 May 2010 07:09:29 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-280480 Pierre, I'm sincerely sorry about the past and the way that the French-Canadians were treated. When I was in the forces I was very proud to serve under and along very excellent French Canadians. Don't think that just because people spoke English that they thought highly of Montgomery. I would probably say that once the sheen of El Alemain wore off, most Canadian troops would have preferred to fight with American commanders. The Americans kind of lucked out with getting very high quality commanders in that war. I can't vouch about todays commanders though. Sometimes people just get lucky. As far as French-Canadian's being American, I would say in the broadest sense but if you have spent as much time down here with them as I have, I can't think of anyone anywhere who is like an American and I've spent most of my life out of Canada in many different countries. The closest that I've come to finding some people who are like Americans are the Afghans. Pierre,

I'm sincerely sorry about the past and the way that the French-Canadians were treated. When I was in the forces I was very proud to serve under and along very excellent French Canadians.

Don't think that just because people spoke English that they thought highly of Montgomery. I would probably say that once the sheen of El Alemain wore off, most Canadian troops would have preferred to fight with American commanders. The Americans kind of lucked out with getting very high quality commanders in that war. I can't vouch about todays commanders though. Sometimes people just get lucky.

As far as French-Canadian's being American, I would say in the broadest sense but if you have spent as much time down here with them as I have, I can't think of anyone anywhere who is like an American and I've spent most of my life out of Canada in many different countries. The closest that I've come to finding some people who are like Americans are the Afghans.

]]> By: Pierre Corbeil http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-279038 Pierre Corbeil Tue, 18 May 2010 18:30:31 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-279038 Canadians vs Germans vs English.... I had the opportunity to hear a first hand and very personal account of the war on the ground in the Canadian Army in the Northwest campaign. My father, Raoul, served in the Fusiliers Mont-Royal, a tough bunch if there was one, in Belgium and Holland from July 1944 to February 1945 when he was badly wounded in Germany. Indeed, the Canadian Army was given a dirty job, pushing into Holland along narrow dikes and through swampy terrain. He felt no hatred against the German soldiers, whom he said were doing their job as he was doing his; his one complaint is that they always fought as hard as they could before surrendering. His anger was directed at the English, who were condescendent towards the colonials and openly racist against the French-Canadian that he was, despite the exploits of his regiment. He also felt a community of spirit with the Scots, especially when he visited his sister-in-law's relations in Scotland. Relations between front-line soldiers on opposing sides are often very respectful. My father remembered entering Groningen and taking the surrender of a dozen Germans in the basement of a house. One soldier was very worried that his wedding ring might be taken by the military police. My father asked him by gestures to give him his kepi and the ring. My father then cut a slit in the kepi's lining, so that the soldier could hide his ring. Immediately, half a dozen German soldiers were pressing their kepis to my father so that he could make a slit in their kepis. The Americans were too far and too powerful to enter my father's thinking, though, since he had little use for Montgomery, he might have sided with the Americans. But then, French-Canadians are Americans too, on their way. Canadians vs Germans vs English…. I had the opportunity to hear a first hand and very personal account of the war on the ground in the Canadian Army in the Northwest campaign. My father, Raoul, served in the Fusiliers Mont-Royal, a tough bunch if there was one, in Belgium and Holland from July 1944 to February 1945 when he was badly wounded in Germany.
Indeed, the Canadian Army was given a dirty job, pushing into Holland along narrow dikes and through swampy terrain.
He felt no hatred against the German soldiers, whom he said were doing their job as he was doing his; his one complaint is that they always fought as hard as they could before surrendering. His anger was directed at the English, who were condescendent towards the colonials and openly racist against the French-Canadian that he was, despite the exploits of his regiment. He also felt a community of spirit with the Scots, especially when he visited his sister-in-law's relations in Scotland.
Relations between front-line soldiers on opposing sides are often very respectful. My father remembered entering Groningen and taking the surrender of a dozen Germans in the basement of a house. One soldier was very worried that his wedding ring might be taken by the military police. My father asked him by gestures to give him his kepi and the ring. My father then cut a slit in the kepi's lining, so that the soldier could hide his ring. Immediately, half a dozen German soldiers were pressing their kepis to my father so that he could make a slit in their kepis.
The Americans were too far and too powerful to enter my father's thinking, though, since he had little use for Montgomery, he might have sided with the Americans. But then, French-Canadians are Americans too, on their way.

]]> By: Scott Blair http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-278962 Scott Blair Tue, 18 May 2010 16:13:28 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-278962 I agree and cite in particular Rick Atkinson's The Day of Battle about the Sicilian and Italian campaigns in 1943-44. Atkinson's account is clearly American-centric, and he consistently trashes General Bernard Montgomery's performance in those campaigns. I will grant Atkinson does save some of his poisoned pen writings for U.S. General Mark Clark. It is important to note that Atkinson is a journalist, and a pretty good writer (I think An Army At Dawn was even better written), but not a trained historian. He weaves many vignettes together to paint a fairly comprehensive picture of the Italian campaign. He even gives grudging respect to the Free French mountain troops who finally broke the Monte Cassino line. There is no doubt that inherent nationalism underpins all the accounts of war. After all isn't that what (traditional) war is about, clashes of nations? As the historian Marc Bloch argued in The Historian's Craft, pure objectivity in history is impossible. I agree and cite in particular Rick Atkinson's The Day of Battle about the Sicilian and Italian campaigns in 1943-44. Atkinson's account is clearly American-centric, and he consistently trashes General Bernard Montgomery's performance in those campaigns. I will grant Atkinson does save some of his poisoned pen writings for U.S. General Mark Clark.

It is important to note that Atkinson is a journalist, and a pretty good writer (I think An Army At Dawn was even better written), but not a trained historian. He weaves many vignettes together to paint a fairly comprehensive picture of the Italian campaign. He even gives grudging respect to the Free French mountain troops who finally broke the Monte Cassino line.

There is no doubt that inherent nationalism underpins all the accounts of war. After all isn't that what (traditional) war is about, clashes of nations? As the historian Marc Bloch argued in The Historian's Craft, pure objectivity in history is impossible.

]]> By: Luke Truxal http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-273631 Luke Truxal Sun, 09 May 2010 13:32:04 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-273631 Similar to books such as the German Way of War and the American Way of War it appears that after reading this debate that their is a way of writing military history. It seems the British and Americans seem to almost enjoy blaming each other for mishaps in coalition warfare when writing this history. I don't know if their is anything written on the subject, but that would make an interesting book for me. However, I am afraid the reading audience would be so small that it may not warrant being written. However, it seems that it would be interesting to see how each country goes about their process of writing military history and to see if there are any trends that military historians have when writing history. I was just thinking of this after reading these posts which I found quite interesting. Similar to books such as the German Way of War and the American Way of War it appears that after reading this debate that their is a way of writing military history. It seems the British and Americans seem to almost enjoy blaming each other for mishaps in coalition warfare when writing this history. I don't know if their is anything written on the subject, but that would make an interesting book for me. However, I am afraid the reading audience would be so small that it may not warrant being written. However, it seems that it would be interesting to see how each country goes about their process of writing military history and to see if there are any trends that military historians have when writing history.

I was just thinking of this after reading these posts which I found quite interesting.

]]> By: William Rolston http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-273483 William Rolston Sun, 09 May 2010 05:57:18 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-273483 One last thing I was thinking about. You know there are institutional biases everywhere and they last a long time. I think that the British are kind of resentful and embarrassed of how badly that they were shown up in WW1 by the Canadian Corps and Arthur Currie. There is always a constant low level bitching and backbiting that has always perpetuated by the British when it comes to Canada. Any Canadian accomplishments are explained away or ignored. This is in contrast to the institutional "jock sniffing" for lack of a better term, on the part of both the British and Americans when it comes to the Anzacs which I also think comes from WW1. It is interesting psychology. Everyone has favourites and I don't begrudge people/institution having favourites I just wish that they would acknowledge this bias. I guess it is good to be Canadian or else all this would bother me. I'm proud of Canadian military accomplishments I am thankful that they are more interested in winning than in blabbing about how wonderful they are. and I'm also glad that my national identity isn't wrapped up in military accomplishments or else it would really screw us up as a people, just look at the US and Britain. One last thing I was thinking about. You know there are institutional biases everywhere and they last a long time.

I think that the British are kind of resentful and embarrassed of how badly that they were shown up in WW1 by the Canadian Corps and Arthur Currie. There is always a constant low level bitching and backbiting that has always perpetuated by the British when it comes to Canada. Any Canadian accomplishments are explained away or ignored.

This is in contrast to the institutional "jock sniffing" for lack of a better term, on the part of both the British and Americans when it comes to the Anzacs which I also think comes from WW1. It is interesting psychology. Everyone has favourites and I don't begrudge people/institution having favourites I just wish that they would acknowledge this bias.

I guess it is good to be Canadian or else all this would bother me. I'm proud of Canadian military accomplishments I am thankful that they are more interested in winning than in blabbing about how wonderful they are. and I'm also glad that my national identity isn't wrapped up in military accomplishments or else it would really screw us up as a people, just look at the US and Britain.

]]> By: William Rolston http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-273458 William Rolston Sun, 09 May 2010 04:36:47 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-273458 I guess in summary, the toughness of the Canadians probably made up for rather average senior leadership. The British rather greedily sucked up almost 700 junior officers from Canada so I find it difficult to believe that the Brits found them so bad. I guess in summary, the toughness of the Canadians probably made up for rather average senior leadership.

The British rather greedily sucked up almost 700 junior officers from Canada so I find it difficult to believe that the Brits found them so bad.

]]> By: Bill Nance http://www.historynet.com/dueling-narratives-panzer-meyer-and-the-canadians.htm#comment-272796 Bill Nance Sat, 08 May 2010 02:36:36 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682316#comment-272796 I've always had the impression that the Canadian army deserved a lot better treatment than what they got. Seems like they ended up with most of the nasty, inglorious jobs in the 21st Army Group. Still, most of the recent professional military literature I've read recently seems to be giving them their due. More fun to slam the brits. I've always had the impression that the Canadian army deserved a lot better treatment than what they got. Seems like they ended up with most of the nasty, inglorious jobs in the 21st Army Group. Still, most of the recent professional military literature I've read recently seems to be giving them their due. More fun to slam the brits.

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