Comments on: Deceiving the Enemy, Fooling Ourselves: Garbo at War http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm From the World's Largest History Magazine Publisher Sat, 25 May 2013 00:50:28 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Mollypitcher http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-350606 Mollypitcher Sat, 16 Oct 2010 04:07:31 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-350606 La ruse de guerre has existed for all time and should be used in whatever manner or means may be possible at the moment...and that includes secret agents. In today's world where "hero's" too often take the form of cardboard or cinema's animated unreal figures, it is difficult for many to believe that at one time in history, one man or woman could in fact, make a difference....and often did! La ruse de guerre has existed for all time and should be used in whatever manner or means may be possible at the moment…and that includes secret agents. In today's world where "hero's" too often take the form of cardboard or cinema's animated unreal figures, it is difficult for many to believe that at one time in history, one man or woman could in fact, make a difference….and often did!

]]> By: E.Dale Rodman http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-327439 E.Dale Rodman Mon, 30 Aug 2010 19:49:06 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-327439 I am a survivor of Exercise Tiger (Apr 29, 1944). It was a training exercise but was also used as a deception for D-Day. Advance Information was given to the Germans through the double agents.The purpose was to make the Germans believe they would given advance warning when the invasion begin. The ploy worked, but resulted in the loss of over 1500 lives when German E-Boats attacked the naval convoy, sinking two landing craft and damaging another. Because the Americans and English were using different radio frequency it caused the English Destroyers and Shore battery to open fire on the allied Ships. This resulted in the sinking of more landing craft. To cover-up the English part a Cover-up was made. The altered documents show only the sinking of ships sunk by the Germans and only 629 killed. I have been researching and collecting material since 1987. Stories from other survivors contradict the written record. I was part of a 13 man detachment aboard a LST. Ten men were killed.. The company record list only 5 killed. In all 28 from my Company were killed, records list only 18. I have written MY STORY and will be happy to send you a copy.if you are interested.. I am a survivor of Exercise Tiger (Apr 29, 1944). It was a training exercise but was also used as a deception for D-Day. Advance Information was given to the Germans through the double agents.The purpose was to make the Germans believe they would given advance warning when the invasion begin. The ploy worked, but resulted in the loss of over 1500 lives when German E-Boats attacked the naval convoy, sinking two landing craft and damaging another. Because the Americans and English were using different radio frequency it caused the English Destroyers and Shore battery to open fire on the allied Ships. This resulted in the sinking of more landing craft. To cover-up the English part a Cover-up was made. The altered documents show only the sinking of ships sunk by the Germans and only 629 killed.

I have been researching and collecting material since 1987. Stories from other survivors contradict the written record. I was part of a 13 man detachment aboard a LST. Ten men were killed.. The company record list only 5 killed. In all 28 from my Company were killed, records list only 18. I have written MY STORY and will be happy to send you a copy.if you are interested..

]]> By: Luke Truxal http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-317140 Luke Truxal Tue, 10 Aug 2010 18:34:20 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-317140 I guess this does come down to not putting all of your eggs in one basket. The bombing of the transportation and rail networks may have eliminated the need for deception operations. The Germans know they can't react very rapidly with Allied air power, but do the Allies know that? It seems to me when you look at it from the Allies side how can you be certain the strategic bombing of France worked? That's putting a lot of faith in a concept that had not lived up to its lofty expectations so far. So why not use a lot of deception just to be on the safe side. It seems that when planning an operation of this magnitude it is better to be safe than sorry. I guess what the debate is over is the effectiveness of such spy games. In my opinion effective or not if you have the ability to add that extra variable put it into play. I guess this does come down to not putting all of your eggs in one basket. The bombing of the transportation and rail networks may have eliminated the need for deception operations. The Germans know they can't react very rapidly with Allied air power, but do the Allies know that?

It seems to me when you look at it from the Allies side how can you be certain the strategic bombing of France worked? That's putting a lot of faith in a concept that had not lived up to its lofty expectations so far. So why not use a lot of deception just to be on the safe side. It seems that when planning an operation of this magnitude it is better to be safe than sorry.

I guess what the debate is over is the effectiveness of such spy games. In my opinion effective or not if you have the ability to add that extra variable put it into play.

]]> By: Rob Citino http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-316897 Rob Citino Mon, 09 Aug 2010 23:27:38 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-316897 Eric-- You're on firm ground here. A LOT of people agree with you. Maybe I'm wrong--it happens! --Rob Eric–

You're on firm ground here. A LOT of people agree with you. Maybe I'm wrong–it happens!

–Rob

]]> By: Eric Weider http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-316753 Eric Weider Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:53:02 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-316753 Clearly the Allies used many methods to deceive and delay an effective German reaction to Normandy...to rely on only one method would have been crazy. The fact that the Allies were successful in implemeting several methods is a testament to how good they had gotten by 1944 in deception and planning...but it doesn't take away one bit from the brilliance and brashness of what Garbo achieved. He is way up there in the pantheon of great spies. Clearly the Allies used many methods to deceive and delay an effective German reaction to Normandy…to rely on only one method would have been crazy. The fact that the Allies were successful in implemeting several methods is a testament to how good they had gotten by 1944 in deception and planning…but it doesn't take away one bit from the brilliance and brashness of what Garbo achieved. He is way up there in the pantheon of great spies.

]]> By: Luke Truxal http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-315615 Luke Truxal Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:28:47 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-315615 Funny you should post this blog right now. I just read a quote from Curtis LeMay who said all deception missions that were used by the 8th Air Force were pointless and ineffective. Although he may have a little bias because he did lead the deception portion of the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission. Funny you should post this blog right now. I just read a quote from Curtis LeMay who said all deception missions that were used by the 8th Air Force were pointless and ineffective. Although he may have a little bias because he did lead the deception portion of the Schweinfurt-Regensburg mission.

]]> By: Sensemaker http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-315590 Sensemaker Thu, 05 Aug 2010 12:39:31 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-315590 "I've been thinking about why we like these stories so much. Is it because modern, industrialized war–and World War II was the epitome–is so large, so bureaucratic in nature, so impersonal, that we need to believe that one man made all the difference?" Well spoken, Robert. People, perhaps particularly Americans, do want to believe that one person made a difference so we tend to overestamate the influence of a single person. This is certainly not limited to military matters: Edison did not invent the light bulb, he improved and existing lightning system. Watt did not invent the steam engine, he significantly improved existing systems. Schliemann did not discover Troy. Using pretty unscrupulous methods helped create publicity and finance excavation of the place where pretty much everyone thought it would be if it had existed. Elliot Ness had very little to do with the eventual defeat and incarceration of Al Capone. However, during a very dark time for Chicato's law enforcement he did manage to bring the message to law abiding citizens that not all cops were corrupt and that it was possible to stand up against organized crime and win. Rosa Parks was a member of an organisation fighting against segregation. She was not the first to engage in civil disobedience of this form. She was, however, the first to plead not guilty because the law she had broken was unconstitutional. Sensemaker "I've been thinking about why we like these stories so much. Is it because modern, industrialized war–and World War II was the epitome–is so large, so bureaucratic in nature, so impersonal, that we need to believe that one man made all the difference?"

Well spoken, Robert. People, perhaps particularly Americans, do want to believe that one person made a difference so we tend to overestamate the influence of a single person. This is certainly not limited to military matters:

Edison did not invent the light bulb, he improved and existing lightning system.

Watt did not invent the steam engine, he significantly improved existing systems.

Schliemann did not discover Troy. Using pretty unscrupulous methods helped create publicity and finance excavation of the place where pretty much everyone thought it would be if it had existed.

Elliot Ness had very little to do with the eventual defeat and incarceration of Al Capone. However, during a very dark time for Chicato's law enforcement he did manage to bring the message to law abiding citizens that not all cops were corrupt and that it was possible to stand up against organized crime and win.

Rosa Parks was a member of an organisation fighting against segregation. She was not the first to engage in civil disobedience of this form. She was, however, the first to plead not guilty because the law she had broken was unconstitutional.

Sensemaker

]]> By: Deceiving the Enemy, Fooling Ourselves: Garbo at War » HistoryNet http://www.historynet.com/deceiving-the-enemy-fooling-ourselves-garbo-at-war.htm#comment-315509 Deceiving the Enemy, Fooling Ourselves: Garbo at War » HistoryNet Thu, 05 Aug 2010 05:36:30 +0000 http://www.historynet.com/?p=13682674#comment-315509 [...] more here:  Deceiving the Enemy, Fooling Ourselves: Garbo at War » HistoryNet Post a [...] [...] more here:  Deceiving the Enemy, Fooling Ourselves: Garbo at War » HistoryNet Post a [...]

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