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	<title>Comments on: Clausewitz Was Right:  The Race to Tunis</title>
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		<title>By: Larry C.</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-824083</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2012 17:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Tunisian were not all that innocent as Khéchine may write.  Years ago, I talked to several American and Brits that served in that operation.  Every one of them claimed that theTunisians were collaborators with the Germans.  Numerous Brits and Americans died by the actions of the Tunisians.  
Yes, there was collateral damage but also many died as a result of directed action.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tunisian were not all that innocent as Khéchine may write.  Years ago, I talked to several American and Brits that served in that operation.  Every one of them claimed that theTunisians were collaborators with the Germans.  Numerous Brits and Americans died by the actions of the Tunisians.<br />
Yes, there was collateral damage but also many died as a result of directed action.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-810585</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:33:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There were more than 120,000 Jews living in Tunisia at the time, under French Vichy since 1940; under an Islamic Turk as governor; under the Nazis and Italian Fascists and under Islamists Tunisian nationalists who were determined later to push them out of Tunisia completely... There were the only community singled out during SS occupation for looting; slave workers in military camps, concentration camps and much more...  yet this Tunisian somehow forgets to mention this.  The Allied forces basically saved the Jews of Tunisia and that i hope is something, at least for the Jews of Tunisia it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There were more than 120,000 Jews living in Tunisia at the time, under French Vichy since 1940; under an Islamic Turk as governor; under the Nazis and Italian Fascists and under Islamists Tunisian nationalists who were determined later to push them out of Tunisia completely&#8230; There were the only community singled out during SS occupation for looting; slave workers in military camps, concentration camps and much more&#8230;  yet this Tunisian somehow forgets to mention this.  The Allied forces basically saved the Jews of Tunisia and that i hope is something, at least for the Jews of Tunisia it is.</p>
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		<title>By: houbeb Khéchine</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-572677</link>
		<dc:creator>houbeb Khéchine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 May 2011 14:21:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-572677</guid>
		<description>Bonjour de la Tunisie,

Je vous écris pour vous dire que je m&#039;intéresse à la deuxième guerre mondiale, mais avec une optique tunisienne. Mon pays n&#039;a pas seulement été un champ de bataille, mais plus de 60 000 tunisiens civils sont morts sous les bombes et obus des deux antagonistes. Toute la Tunisie garde les séquelles de cette guerre terrible. Mareth, Kasserrine, Gafsa, Kairouan, Tunis, Enfidha,  Zaghouan, Mateur Bizerte Beja,  Sidi Nsir, Tahent, Cote 609.. Et tant d&#039;autres endroits. Tous ici vous raconteront leurs souffrances, leurs angoisses, ils vous raconteront comment ils ont pleurés leurs morts. Morts anonymes sans honneur, sans reconnaissance. Les dégâts matériels sont aussi énormes,. Qui vous dira que les bombardements de la deuxième guerre mondiale ont détruits une grand partie des remparts de la ville de Kairouan, qui datent de plus de 1000 ans.  Personnes n&#039;en parle. Aujourd’hui,  la Tunisie accueille les cimetières des soldats que cela soit Américains, Allemands, Français et anglais… Ils sont tombés au champ d&#039;honneur, ils reposent dans notre terre. Tous ces hommes morts entre novembre 42 et le 13 Mai 1943, sont regroupés dans des mémoriaux dignes, car nul ne peut amoindrir un perte humaine quelque soit sont bord. Les tunisiens eux sont morts sans que personne ne leur fasse un hommage ni la moindre  reconnaissance. Ce n’est pas leur guerre ; Et ils n’ont rien gagné. Doublement perdant, Et je me propose depuis peu de chercher dans la littérature de guerre, quelques références aux pertes d&#039;autochtones.

Approximate translation (Yahoo Babel Fish):
Hello from Tunisia,
I write to you to think that I m&#039; interest in the second world war, but with a Tunisian optics. My country n&#039; was not only one battle field, but more than 60.000 civil Tunisian died under the bombs and shell of the two antagonists. All Tunisia keeps the after-effects of this terrible war. Mareth, Kasserrine, Gafsa, Kairouan, Tunis, Enfidha, Zaghouan, Mateur Bizerte Beja, Sidi Nsir, Tahent, Dimension 609. And so much d&#039; other places. All here will tell you their sufferings, their anguishes, they will tell you how they cried their deaths. Died anonymous without honor, recognition. The property damages are also enormous. Who will say to you that the bombardments of the second world war destroyed large a part of the ramparts of the town of Kairouan, which date of more than 1000 years. People n&#039; in speaks. Today, Tunisia accomodates the cemeteries of the soldiers that is American, German, French and English… They fell to the field d&#039; honor, they rest in our ground. All these men died between November 42 and on May 13, 1943, are gathered in worthy memorials, because no one cannot reduce an human loss some is are edge. Tunisian them died without nobody making them a homage nor the least recognition. It is not their war; And they did not gain anything. Doubly loser, And I recently propose to seek in the literature of war, some references to the losses d&#039; autochtones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bonjour de la Tunisie,</p>
<p>Je vous écris pour vous dire que je m&#039;intéresse à la deuxième guerre mondiale, mais avec une optique tunisienne. Mon pays n&#039;a pas seulement été un champ de bataille, mais plus de 60 000 tunisiens civils sont morts sous les bombes et obus des deux antagonistes. Toute la Tunisie garde les séquelles de cette guerre terrible. Mareth, Kasserrine, Gafsa, Kairouan, Tunis, Enfidha,  Zaghouan, Mateur Bizerte Beja,  Sidi Nsir, Tahent, Cote 609.. Et tant d&#039;autres endroits. Tous ici vous raconteront leurs souffrances, leurs angoisses, ils vous raconteront comment ils ont pleurés leurs morts. Morts anonymes sans honneur, sans reconnaissance. Les dégâts matériels sont aussi énormes,. Qui vous dira que les bombardements de la deuxième guerre mondiale ont détruits une grand partie des remparts de la ville de Kairouan, qui datent de plus de 1000 ans.  Personnes n&#039;en parle. Aujourd’hui,  la Tunisie accueille les cimetières des soldats que cela soit Américains, Allemands, Français et anglais… Ils sont tombés au champ d&#039;honneur, ils reposent dans notre terre. Tous ces hommes morts entre novembre 42 et le 13 Mai 1943, sont regroupés dans des mémoriaux dignes, car nul ne peut amoindrir un perte humaine quelque soit sont bord. Les tunisiens eux sont morts sans que personne ne leur fasse un hommage ni la moindre  reconnaissance. Ce n’est pas leur guerre ; Et ils n’ont rien gagné. Doublement perdant, Et je me propose depuis peu de chercher dans la littérature de guerre, quelques références aux pertes d&#039;autochtones.</p>
<p>Approximate translation (Yahoo Babel Fish):<br />
Hello from Tunisia,<br />
I write to you to think that I m&#039; interest in the second world war, but with a Tunisian optics. My country n&#039; was not only one battle field, but more than 60.000 civil Tunisian died under the bombs and shell of the two antagonists. All Tunisia keeps the after-effects of this terrible war. Mareth, Kasserrine, Gafsa, Kairouan, Tunis, Enfidha, Zaghouan, Mateur Bizerte Beja, Sidi Nsir, Tahent, Dimension 609. And so much d&#039; other places. All here will tell you their sufferings, their anguishes, they will tell you how they cried their deaths. Died anonymous without honor, recognition. The property damages are also enormous. Who will say to you that the bombardments of the second world war destroyed large a part of the ramparts of the town of Kairouan, which date of more than 1000 years. People n&#039; in speaks. Today, Tunisia accomodates the cemeteries of the soldiers that is American, German, French and English… They fell to the field d&#039; honor, they rest in our ground. All these men died between November 42 and on May 13, 1943, are gathered in worthy memorials, because no one cannot reduce an human loss some is are edge. Tunisian them died without nobody making them a homage nor the least recognition. It is not their war; And they did not gain anything. Doubly loser, And I recently propose to seek in the literature of war, some references to the losses d&#039; autochtones.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Nance</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-203237</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 04:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-203237</guid>
		<description>I see what you&#039;re saying.  I just think the Italians would have been just as happy with all those reinforcements going to Sicilian and lower Italian beaches.

The Italian campaign was a nightmare enough with the German forces that were available.  Imagine if they hadn&#039;t overcommitted in Tunisia.  Perhaps the Italian government might not have fallen.  that could have been a very ugly scenario for your hero and mine General Mark &quot;where&#039;s my pants?&quot; Clark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you&#039;re saying.  I just think the Italians would have been just as happy with all those reinforcements going to Sicilian and lower Italian beaches.</p>
<p>The Italian campaign was a nightmare enough with the German forces that were available.  Imagine if they hadn&#039;t overcommitted in Tunisia.  Perhaps the Italian government might not have fallen.  that could have been a very ugly scenario for your hero and mine General Mark &#034;where&#039;s my pants?&#034; Clark.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Truxal</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-202728</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Truxal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-202728</guid>
		<description>I agree that operationally the decision was terrible and should have never been made but it appears to me that this was more of a political decision than an operational one.  I think that the Italians were probably wondering why they were fighting in North Africa as well as Sicily and Russia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that operationally the decision was terrible and should have never been made but it appears to me that this was more of a political decision than an operational one.  I think that the Italians were probably wondering why they were fighting in North Africa as well as Sicily and Russia.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Nance</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-202701</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-202701</guid>
		<description>Luke, holding tunis only makes sense if you CAN hold it.  Sending more troops to Tunisia, which will be caught in a tight perimeter with a supply line prowled by fighter bombers from Malta and Allied airfields in Tunisia is not a real recipe for success.  He was sending troops into the &#039;bag&#039; without sending enough to truly do anything.  You need at least a local 3:1 in the attack most times to be successful.  The axis didn&#039;t have anything near that.  So all they could do would be to hold out as long as possible, but then when the jig was up, most of those troops would be lost.  As the Germans favored their troops to save, politically it was disastrous as the Italians saw yet again how the Germans treated them as cannon fodder.  What must have been going through the Italian soldiers minds in Sicily after watching what happened in Tunisia?  They&#039;re asking who is the real enemy, and why are we dying for these SOBs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luke, holding tunis only makes sense if you CAN hold it.  Sending more troops to Tunisia, which will be caught in a tight perimeter with a supply line prowled by fighter bombers from Malta and Allied airfields in Tunisia is not a real recipe for success.  He was sending troops into the &#039;bag&#039; without sending enough to truly do anything.  You need at least a local 3:1 in the attack most times to be successful.  The axis didn&#039;t have anything near that.  So all they could do would be to hold out as long as possible, but then when the jig was up, most of those troops would be lost.  As the Germans favored their troops to save, politically it was disastrous as the Italians saw yet again how the Germans treated them as cannon fodder.  What must have been going through the Italian soldiers minds in Sicily after watching what happened in Tunisia?  They&#039;re asking who is the real enemy, and why are we dying for these SOBs?</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Truxal</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-202454</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Truxal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-202454</guid>
		<description>Hitler wouldn&#039;t be Hitler if he wasn&#039;t committed to forward defense.   Just like Monty wouldn&#039;t be Monty if he wasn&#039;t afraid of fighting a more mobile and rapidly advancing campaign. That involves risk and Monty didn&#039;t like to take risks and the one risky highly mobile operation that he was in charge of failed miserably. 


Were the divisions that were sent to North Africa allocated for the defense of Italy or were they going to be sent to fight the Soviet Union? In my opinion if these divisions were specifically assigned to the defense of Italy and Sicily you could argue that Hitler wasn&#039;t taking away divisions from Sicily or Italy but he was trying to defend Sicily and Italy by fighting the Allies in North Africa. One of the arguments for going into Iraq and Afghanistan was to fight the terrorists on their soil so that the fight did not work its way back to the United States. Maybe that was what Hitler was trying to do. Maybe Hitler realized he was losing Italian support and that in order to keep the Italians in the war he must keep the Allies off of the Italian homeland.  Therefore from a political perspective it makes sense to send reinforcements to Tunis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitler wouldn&#039;t be Hitler if he wasn&#039;t committed to forward defense.   Just like Monty wouldn&#039;t be Monty if he wasn&#039;t afraid of fighting a more mobile and rapidly advancing campaign. That involves risk and Monty didn&#039;t like to take risks and the one risky highly mobile operation that he was in charge of failed miserably. </p>
<p>Were the divisions that were sent to North Africa allocated for the defense of Italy or were they going to be sent to fight the Soviet Union? In my opinion if these divisions were specifically assigned to the defense of Italy and Sicily you could argue that Hitler wasn&#039;t taking away divisions from Sicily or Italy but he was trying to defend Sicily and Italy by fighting the Allies in North Africa. One of the arguments for going into Iraq and Afghanistan was to fight the terrorists on their soil so that the fight did not work its way back to the United States. Maybe that was what Hitler was trying to do. Maybe Hitler realized he was losing Italian support and that in order to keep the Italians in the war he must keep the Allies off of the Italian homeland.  Therefore from a political perspective it makes sense to send reinforcements to Tunis.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Citino</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-201969</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Citino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 19:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hitler was committed to the forward defense--especially after the &quot;Stand-fast order&quot; (Haltbefehl) in front of Moscow.  Good question about Sicily, Bill!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitler was committed to the forward defense&#8211;especially after the &#034;Stand-fast order&#034; (Haltbefehl) in front of Moscow.  Good question about Sicily, Bill!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Nance</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-201764</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Nance</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 14:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-201764</guid>
		<description>Hitler would have made a crappy poker player.  Staying in when he really should have folded.  Not the first time he made that mistake.  I wonder what the Axis (specifically Italian) defense of Sicily and Italy would have looked like with all the troops lost in North Africa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitler would have made a crappy poker player.  Staying in when he really should have folded.  Not the first time he made that mistake.  I wonder what the Axis (specifically Italian) defense of Sicily and Italy would have looked like with all the troops lost in North Africa.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Citino</title>
		<link>http://www.historynet.com/clausewitz-was-right-the-race-to-tunis.htm#comment-201412</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Citino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.historynet.com/?p=13681959#comment-201412</guid>
		<description>Actually, losing the race meant that the Axis had time to ship a MUCH larger force to Africa than they would have  otherwise, and in the end it merely swelled the POW list.

War is a strange business sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, losing the race meant that the Axis had time to ship a MUCH larger force to Africa than they would have  otherwise, and in the end it merely swelled the POW list.</p>
<p>War is a strange business sometimes.</p>
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