Comments on: Axis v. Allied Fighter Pilots Discussion

By: daniel

daniel — Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:05:33 +0000

German pilots had better flying experience and tactical handling, many flew with Lufthansa, fought at Spain -Condor Legion- and they developed the famous "fingers four"- But the Brits got the radar, which allowed them a great handicap during the Battle of Britain, which Lufwaffe lost because they stopped attacking the radar stations and the airbases. Afterwards the allies developed/increased their training programs which were better than the used by the Germans, and the Japanese. The Allies had to learn the trade but they did it.

By: Dean

Dean — Fri, 12 Aug 2011 04:35:46 +0000

I think it was because of the quality of aircraft/training. The German Pilots had more time practicing, while the other air forces other than England weren't flying as often and were usually flying slow, obsolete aircraft. When you add the fact some of those could be air to ground kills its no surprise the German Aces had such high scores. A Me-109 could easily take out a Gloster Gladiator…!

By: Martin

Martin — Wed, 12 Jan 2011 01:45:19 +0000

I agree in general terms. When you look at the sheer # of missions / sorties the German Pilots flew, it appears that many times they had their hands full staying alive. I have no problem with a pilot shooting down 200 planes in 2,000 missions. Francis Gabreski shot down planes at the same rate as some of the Luftwaffe aces, but he only flew a comparative handful of missions. Japanese aqnd German pilots flew till they were killed / incompacitated or until the war ended. German pilots realized that to live and fight another day, they could amass scores / glory and serve their country better. Japanese pilots were much more "pell-mell" if you would, tended to throw caution to the wind and were to eager to accept death. And I'm not just talking about Kamikaze ops. I wonder what kind of scores some of the US / British pilots would have run up if they flew 1,000 to 2,000 missions in a target rich environment?
Cheers!
Martin

By: Malcolm Duncan

Malcolm Duncan — Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:06:32 +0000

Did the early German fighter planes not have gun camera?

By: Rolf Zydek

Rolf Zydek — Thu, 27 May 2010 10:14:36 +0000

Has anyone ever followed that all so called german "aces" flew between
650 – 1200 missions throughout the war to gain their "success".

How many missions did allied pilots flew ????

25 – 50 max ?! I guess

The other question : How many allied planes stood against axxis planes. I do remember that from the russian IL-2 Shturmovik alone about 33.000 were built not to count the many B-17's,B-24's,P 51,P-47's just to name a few.

Compare the top 10 aces allied to axxis via their missions they flew.

All german aces had ammassed about 800 – 1100 missions each
between 1936 – 1945.

By: Paul Davies

Paul Davies — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:52:30 +0000

Compare Galland, Molders, Wick, Lutzow, Hans-Karl Mayer, Priller and others in the top 30 german aces in 1940 with allied aces when you addd up the probable kills on top of these accredited scores below would give some 40 odd kills which is near the score average for these above.
Scores generally accepted vary but are usually given as these below;
End 1940 totals for Allied aces;
Lacey 23, Allard 23, Lock 22, Crossley 22, Mckellar 21, Dutton 19, McMullen 17.5, H M Stephen 18, Malan 18-19, Tuck 18, A G Lewis 18, Frantisek 17, Gray 16.5, Hallowes 17-18, Urbanowicz 17, Carbury 15.5, Doe 15, P C Hughes 15.5, McDowall 14, Dundas 13.3, J T Webster 14, Currant 14, Bader 12, McKnight 16.5, Kaine 17, Orton 18 and others, if we also add probables and damaged; we would have aces ranking similar to Galland 58 (end 1940 all these also) Wick 56 (KIA),Molders 55, Oesau 39, Balthaser 31, Joppien 31, Mayer 38, Priller 20, Ebeling 18, Pingel 15, Sprick 20, Machold 28, Schopfel 22, Lignitz 18, Krahle 15, Schnell 20, Lutzow 15, Schmidt 18, Hans Phillipp 20, Hrabak 16, H Ekhard Bob 18, Ihlefeld 25, Jabs 20, Bar 13-17 and others. These were all highly trained and dangerous foes but some claims seen falling smoking or spinning did live to fight again and the german pilots could not sit and watch every one crash in the heat of combat; nor could our allied aces for that matter; scores were not the issue, survival was.

Paul Davies

By: Paul Davies

Paul Davies — Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:22:52 +0000

Some of the posts are accurate; however you cannot generalise. It is true that on average, the German pilots had more experience in training and in combat from the Spanish civil war, Poland, Belgium, Norway and France, etc, before the Battle of Britain, where they conquered those air forces in inferior aircraft with better tactics, formations, armament and skills learned in earlier combats. The RAF with the help of COMMONWEALTH and Polish, Czech and other Allied pilots, stopped them when using equal equipment in the Spitfire and to an extent, the Hurricane.However, the claims are also sometimes wildy optimistic, see Marseille with 17 claimed in 1 combat in the Desert war, and Galland and Molders and Wick, to name a few, in the Battle of Britain. Some kills claimed were actually crash landed and repaired to fight again, we call these damaged or Probable kills; however the RAF also overclaimed but not by as much a factor.
Our allied aces like Pat Hughes, Pat Pattle and Lock, Davies and others bear comparison for high scoring rates in Battle with the likes of Galland and others. I also find it convenient that Luftwaffe records are not available; due to Allied bombing! all the above still does not diminish my admiration for the skill of the German aces or how hard they fought;especially in the last 6 months of the war when defending their own homes, as our gallant pilots did over Britain in 1940. As I say, you cannot generalise and some german scores can be verified better than others, but our allied aces and pilots put up a remarkable performance given that at the start they had not the same experience, tactics or training; nor the amount of aircraft that the Axis forces had in opposition to us.
To read better opinions on this see the Battle of Britain Historical Society notes on the german and allied aces comperisons.

Paul Davies

By: Robert Mackenzie

Robert Mackenzie — Tue, 09 Feb 2010 11:05:05 +0000

The high scores of so many have a lot to do with superb training (at least in the first years of the war) , the target-rich environment over Russia and the "Fly 'til you die" policy of the Luftwaffe.
Even Gunther Rall , who has sadly just died said that getting transferred to the west and having his thumb shot off by a Thunderbolt probably saved his life and gave him 65 more years to live.

By: Walt

Walt — Thu, 03 Dec 2009 02:05:24 +0000

The difference in kills can best attributed to exaggerated scores. For example, a British aviation historian, Francis K. Mason, examined the claims from both the German and British for the Battle of Britain by using the records of the Luftwaffe and the RAF. He cross referenced the claims right down to the serial numbers of planes. He published his research in the publication, Battle Over Britain (London, 1969).

His research demonstrated that the Germans claimed three times the number of RAF aircraft actually shot down. He points out that if the Germans had destroyed the three thousand plus planes they claimed, the RAF would have been wiped out several times. The RAF never had that many planes during the entire battle.

But the exaggeration was not exclusively German. The RAF claimed over 2000 German planes shot down. This was twice the number actually shot down according to German records.

His research further showed that the top scorer on the British side was actually a Czech pilot who flew with a Polish squadron. I believe his last name was Fratsek.

In computing the squadron scores, the top squadron during the battle was the 303rd RAF squadron which was an all-Polish unit. Their final score was 117 confirmed kills. The second highest scorer was the 501 RAF squadron which was a British unit with 87 confirmed kills. Mason found that he had to discount many of the British claims because they could not be substantiated through German or British records. Interestingly, the Poles were very strict with their pilots when it came to claims and their claims were all verified through German records. No exaggeration!

Elsewhere on this site is an audio by the historian John Chadwick who points out in his research that the Poles were very strict in allowing their pilots to claim kills. He talks about how during the invasion of Poland, the Poles shot down 285 German planes; however, the Poles tended to underclaim the number of planes they show down because of their strict rules. (No, the Polish Air Force was not destroyed in the first days of the war. German propaganda!)

Finally, the Poles were excellent, highly trained pilots who were exceptional marksmen. In an aerial gunnery contest sponsored by the RAF after the Battle of Britain, The first three places were won by the 303rd Sq., 316 Sq. and the 315th Sq. in that order. They are all Polish units. The 303rd won with a score of 808 points out of a thousand. Air Marshall T. Leigh-Mallory was humiliated by the results.

PS The German ace Joachim Marseilles claimed a high kill score against the RAF in North Africa. Research conducted several years ago casts great doubt on his claims because he claimed to have shot down RAF fighters where none were operational.

By: Andrew Dyck

Andrew Dyck — Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:23:14 +0000

The german pilot by himself was very skilled despite what I said previously. The skill and audacity of the German pilot was overshadowed by the failure of the Luftwaffe and the production of the allies.